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 World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers

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MaoChan756
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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:47 pm

I agree - The marks are very high!
Like unfairly high - But that's a real issue with the current system!
The fact that a judges' pet is on ice makes him an automatic winner -
It's like - You love what they do - One clean/huge jump - and you're like 'wonderful' - The urge to give higher marks increases - You are swept by the performance! - The skater skates clean - Marks go higher! You don't really care about the final result - You think that the other judges will be more balanced and your high mark will not really impact! (secretly you do want it to impact...)

When the final result comes out - You notice that just like you - The other judges are also fans of the same skater - You all did the same thing - and the marks are VERY high!...(INSANELY HIGH!)...

Now - the next skaters who'll come along - It'll might be like - Oh well - we were way too overboard - we need to cut down these marks from now on...
Usually marks in worlds for men - are quite high - the range is between 76-87 -
I feel that judges have been simply taken aback by their judging on Chan's skating that all the other who came to skate after Chan got a reserved touchy-itchy marking...
(this explains Olympics scoring of Mao's FP - who skated right after Yuna! - Or again Mao's FP scores who skated after Yuna at worlds 2010 - a high mark she got for a substandard performance!)

He created a world record - His SP will be compared with previous world records - What Plushy - Evan - Dai - did at Olymp 2010 - Was it better than what Chan did here? Were there any change in rules?

Obviously - That's just an observation of human behavior! Its def extreme thinking -
But judges are just people - who tend to like some skaters over others - Now how much this 'liking' impacts the results -
That's the real question?!
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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:01 pm

Hi everyone!!! I've been meaning to join this forum for the longest time (I'm always checking this site everyday!), but I decided that being shy will get me nowhere and its time to give my support to Mao- The best skater I have ever seen since Sasha C.
that being said, Although Patrick deserved his #1 spot at the moment- the score is too high!! I don't like his sp, it doesn't hold a candle to Daisuke's ( I even like Nobu's better!). I wish the Japanese men the best of luck for their FS, they need to skate lights out to beat PatC.
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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:10 pm



Welcome Lee cheers

I just want to tell all the lurkers out there, don't feel shy about joining our forum. We're a very friendly community! flower
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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:24 pm

I feel like Daisuke cant get the title back! PChan has to have a gigantic black out to not become worldchampion Neutral
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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:28 pm

K/S were skating OK until that sudden fall on the step sequence. Bummer. Neutral
Still, a very strong pairs competition and T/T makes it to the final group! P/T were brilliant. I love you

Pairs SP Result
1 Q Qing PANG / Jian TONG CHN 74.00 40.09 33.91 8.57 8.14 8.57 8.46 8.64 0.00 #18
2 Q Aliona SAVCHENKO / Robin SZOLKOWY GER 72.98 39.12 33.86 8.57 8.29 8.57 8.39 8.50 0.00 #19
3 Q Tatiana VOLOSOZHAR / Maxim TRANKOV RUS 70.35 37.43 32.92 8.32 7.93 8.32 8.29 8.29 0.00 #8
4 Q Vera BAZAROVA / Yuri LARIONOV RUS 64.64 36.10 28.54 7.32 7.00 7.14 7.14 7.07 0.00 #15
5 Q Yuko KAVAGUTI / Alexander SMIRNOV RUS 62.54 31.83 31.71 8.04 7.79 7.75 8.14 7.93 1.00 #22
6 Q Narumi TAKAHASHI / Mervin TRAN JPN 59.16 33.57 25.59 6.39 6.21 6.50 6.50 6.39 0.00 #21
7 Q Meagan DUHAMEL / Eric RADFORD CAN 58.83 34.77 24.06 6.18 5.75 6.07 6.11 5.96 0.00 #2
8 Q Caitlin YANKOWSKAS / John COUGHLIN USA 58.76 32.93 26.83 6.82 6.54 6.71 6.79 6.68 1.00 #20
9 Q Stefania BERTON / Ondrej HOTAREK ITA 57.63 32.46 25.17 6.29 6.04 6.46 6.39 6.29 0.00 #16
10 Q Kirsten MOORE-TOWERS / Dylan MOSCOVITCH CAN 56.86 31.33 25.53 6.39 6.18 6.43 6.43 6.50 0.00 #13

Welcome to the forum Lee! Cheering

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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:41 pm

YAY FOR PANG AND TONG!!! thanks for the updates guys Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:58 pm

I'm going to play the devil's advocate here, but actually I think that P-Chan's score wasn't that unreasonable. There were a few things that raised my eyebrows, but I'm not going to comment on them right now, because I haven't watched the programs yet. Sweatdrop

I'm not the biggest fan of Patrick, on the contrary actually, but I've got to give it to him - he can play according to the rules. Yes, he beat the record. But if we look at the recent history of male skaters, they had big problems with combining great skating skills, the ability to jump both quad and triple axel, spins and artistry.

P-Chan's overall PCS were actually lower than at GPF. His score was pretty huge, but Nobu would be sniping right at his legs if it wasn't for messing up the quad, stumbling on the step sequence and getting lvl2 on the combo spin.

Daisuke is a wonderful performer, but unfortunately his recent programs aren't very CoP-smart. I have full confidence that he's perfectly capable of getting lvl4 spins and footwork - he was the first skater to ever achieve lvl4 in Torino. He just needs choreo that would be both beautiful AND CoP-smart.


PochinkoPotanko wrote:
I've always felt uneasy about Nobu's SP steps....

And for a reason - his steps, both in SP and LP (circular) are pretty risky. But I have a feeling that Team Oda is playing a long game here.
I watched Nobu's performances from Nats only recently - I don't like to watch it when my favourites splat. Smile I was pleasantly surprised. Nobu just keeps increasing the difficulty of his programs from competition to competition. Brackets entry into 3A in the second half? That crazy entrance into 3F right into one-footed circular step sequence?! :eek: There were a lot of tiny details that looked plain scary from a technical point of view.
I have a feeling that Nobu is trying to upgrade himself to OdaChan. Laughing If you remember, when Patrick initially appeared at the senior level, he made a lot of seemingly silly mistakes (he still did some this season), because the stuff he kept on trying was pretty difficult. But now he's reaping the benefits of those early splats. I actually admire his strategy, I just wish Patrick, er, kept his mouth shut sometimes and let his skating do all the talking. Sweatdrop


I watched the pairs event with my mom. I loved P/T and S/Sz. And T/T are just awesome, their skating is so elegant for a team so young. It's great they made it to the final group!
I missed Tatiana and Maxim. Depressed Crying I was so looking forward to seeing them. Sad
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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:46 pm

The problem with high scores IMO lies when we compare them to others. I mean, Plushy got 92 in 2006, when GOEs were different** and there was an extra step sequence (2-3 points more + GOE). So, is PChan that better? Is it just because of the current higher base values? (If then, there should be a way to avoid keeping those "records"). Or is it just ISU trying to boost the interest for the sport? No problem with them doing that, but it seems a bit unfair to have skaters being idolized as record holders just because of that. It's just like Yuna's 150 last season. Many ppl went crazy with that score and maybe they started to pay attention to FS from that moment on. Alright, nice, new fans, however is it fair to humilliate the other competitors on that behalf? I mean, she won by over 20 points if I remember it correctly. Is it fair to claim she is the best ever like some say because of the scores? A newbie searching wikipedia would get tremendously impressed about Yuna's PB and think: "who's this Michelle Kwan whose personal best is only 113?". What about the 6.0 skaters?

**Edit: Actually, while I thought GOEs factor would hurt skaters, now they seem even more benefitting, because of magical number 3 Razz

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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:01 pm

It looks like the folks over at the La Riserva forum will be the fastest with vids again, so here's their channel for this year's Worlds:
http://www.youtube.com/user/RiservaISUMosca2011#g/u
(SP vids for men and pairs are already up!)

Many Hearts

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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:03 pm

hi everybody, i´m sorry to ask this here, but when will Mao skate?
i´ve been on a trip for a week and now i´m totaly lost Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:10 pm

clovera wrote:
It looks like the folks over at the La Riserva forum will be the fastest with vids again, so here's their channel for this year's Worlds:
http://www.youtube.com/user/RiservaISUMosca2011#g/u
(SP vids for men and pairs are already up!)

Many Hearts
Just tested it out with a Japanese VPN and it got geoblocked, so those in Japan and elsewhere might want to check Okami's sticky for proxies.

The ladies SP won't be taking place until tomorrow (the 29th), jkblues. Yep!

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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:42 pm

I liked Chan's SP performance very much this time. Love Hearts
But, sadly his fabulous performance spoiled the excitement of watching the rest of the competition. Unconscious ROTFLMAO
Too bad Snow
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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:14 pm

Is it first time in the history of Japanese figure skating that all the three boys will compete at the last group of free skate at worlds?
If so, wow!! Congratulations! Confetti Confetti Confetti
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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:11 pm

clovera wrote:
periperi wrote:
I don't know. Am I the only one who feels that the GOEs Patrick received for his jumps aren't as off as people are complaining about? I mean they were fantastic, spot on jumps. They had phenomenal flow and great ice coverage if not with the height that other certain male skaters at their best can accomplish.
I can't speak for everyone, but at least for me it's the GOEs in comparison to the rest of the competition that can be a bit confusedconfusedconfused and this isn't just limited to PatC. Part of this is due to how COP is designed - in *theory* it's supposed to be an absolute, individual assessment and the GOEs (and PCS) are not relative to the other skaters but based on whether the skater (pair) in question can satisfy the checklist of what the judges are effectively looking for.

I think this is where a lot of problems occur as IMO the judges simply aren't capable of an absolute assessment for so many skaters and the checklist method of handing out GOEs create a slew of discrepancies. This is probably me being influenced by 6.0 too much but (for example) if skater A receives a +1 on their combination spin, I tend to ponder about how skater B should be receiving a +2 instead on theirs and the like. If we just go through with the actual COP scoring of "ticking the boxes" then PatC's GOEs today does make sense since he did satisfy what's stated on the guidelines - it's just that more often that not the same can't be said for the rest of the field and quite often what's judged as a +2 or +3 might actually be less impressive than the very same element by a different skater that received a +1. I hope this makes sense. Sweatdrop

Of course, there's no guarantee a comparative system of handing out GOEs will be any better than the supposed individual method that COP currently has in place. That said, underappreciated skaters like Kozu might actually have an easier time receiving higher PCS too if the scoring was comparative - especially on the SS and TES mark. Maybe. Wink Having better judges in general won't hurt too since 6.0, which was comparative, was not without its share of issues.

(it might be fun if a group of us simulate COP judging for a particular event like the judging games on FSU but also test out alternative ways of scoring GOE/PCS and see if it will or will not have any impact on the overall scores+placements) study

I always enjoy reading your posts, clovera. You seem to have a good understanding of how the COP works, and what you say does make sense. It's an interesting theory.

Regarding Takahiko, what baffles me so much about his PCS scores is that I remember reading somewhere that the ISU often uses him as a model for basic skating skills, so it's obvious that they hold him in high standard. So shouldn't that influence the way the judges score Kozu and the guidelines they should have for him and expect him to meet? I agree that this sport just needs better judges in general... but that would be in a perfect world...

Okami wrote:

But now he's reaping the benefits of those early splats. I actually admire his strategy, I just wish Patrick, er, kept his mouth shut sometimes and let his skating do all the talking. Sweatdrop

Haha true. But with certain skaters that I can recall of the past who have talked the talk but not walked the walk, I have to appreciate that Patrick is not one of them. At the beginning of the season he opened his big, annoying mouth, but, in the end, he got the job done. I think people should give him more credit.
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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:26 pm

periperi wrote:

Regarding Takahiko, what baffles me so much about his PCS scores is that I remember reading somewhere that the ISU often uses him as a model for basic skating skills, so it's obvious that they hold him in high standard. So shouldn't that influence the way the judges score Kozu and the guidelines they should have for him and expect him to meet? I agree that this sport just needs better judges in general... but that would be in a perfect world...

My problem with him actually is that he shows little personality on ice, which somehow makes him less remembered I guess. We have charismatic skaters like Daisuke, and quad kings like Plushy. I think it is important for him to blend his technical and artistic skills to create a "persona"and truly wow the judges. With that being said, I do not like Chan very much but he took pointers from the past seasons and incorporated them to create a minimalistic program that highlighted his strengths (strong jumps, various transitions) and made it to the top. The points awarded to him are a bit scratch though... He's almost locked for gold now, but let's see how our Japanese boys fight!
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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:43 pm

klarification wrote:
periperi wrote:

Regarding Takahiko, what baffles me so much about his PCS scores is that I remember reading somewhere that the ISU often uses him as a model for basic skating skills, so it's obvious that they hold him in high standard. So shouldn't that influence the way the judges score Kozu and the guidelines they should have for him and expect him to meet? I agree that this sport just needs better judges in general... but that would be in a perfect world...

My problem with him actually is that he shows little personality on ice, which somehow makes him less remembered I guess. We have charismatic skaters like Daisuke, and quad kings like Plushy. I think it is important for him to blend his technical and artistic skills to create a "persona"and truly wow the judges. With that being said, I do not like Chan very much but he took pointers from the past seasons and incorporated them to create a minimalistic program that highlighted his strengths (strong jumps, various transitions) and made it to the top. The points awarded to him are a bit scratch though... He's almost locked for gold now, but let's see how our Japanese boys fight!

I should have made myself clearer. I was emphasizing on the skating skills portion especially and pointing out that although the ISU seems to hold Kozu in high esteem for his skating skills (someone correct me if I'm wrong), it doesn't seem to transfer to some of the judges who according to the way they score him are sending a message to me that he isn't to the level of Patrick's skating skills, which I disagree with.

As for his artistry, I guess I've never minded his quiet skating style just as I've never minded Shizuka who was similar. He moves very well, which is good enough for me, but I guess it wouldn't hurt for him to break out of his shell a bit. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:50 pm

periperi wrote:

I should have made myself clearer. I was emphasizing on the skating skills portion especially and pointing out that although the ISU seems to hold Kozu in high esteem for his skating skills (someone correct me if I'm wrong), it doesn't seem to transfer to some of the judges who according to the way they score him are sending a message to me that he isn't to the level of Patrick's skating skills, which I disagree with.

As for his artistry, I guess I've never minded his quiet skating style just as I've never minded Shizuka who was similar. He moves very well, which is good enough for me, but I guess it wouldn't hurt for him to break out of his shell a bit. Razz

Hmm.. Good point. I've always felt that Taka's basic skating skills are the best in the biz, and yet even if commentators and figure skating fans alike acknowledge it, judges do not seem to award him high points. I still think think that if he wants to stand out some more, make them see that there's more to him, he has to do something that will pleasantly surprise the judges. But what do I know? I'm just a Mao fan with little knowledge of COP anyway. Escape

Edit: I forgot, but another skater that made me go scratch was Gachinsky. His program grabbed my attention but that was it. I thought his score was higher than it should have been. Thoughts on that?
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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:42 pm

Patty deserved to lead after SP but his score is Shocked I also don't get PCS of Pang&Tong ... Escape
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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:49 pm

europeanfan wrote:
Patty deserved to lead after SP but his score is Shocked I also don't get PCS of Pang&Tong ... Escape

i agree about patty, but pang and tong were just awesome to me...they were definately the best of the night

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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:13 am

I had to share this quote from ONTD:

"Question: how is IJS less corrupt than 6.0?"

"In 6.0 you can just screw someone without further explanation. In IJS you have to specifically point out how you are screwing them."- from goldenbubble

ROTFLMAO Yeah...the scoring system is.....
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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:21 am

I'm going to embarrass myself here and offer my two cents on the issue of Taka's skating skills marks. For me, it speaks to a wider problem of how the PCS tend to be awarded, which is that they tend to stay in a corridor for each skater.

Say a hypothetical skater has excellent skating skills but relatively poor interpretation of the music. In a fair world, those two things should be scored separately, without reference to each other or the overall program. But chances are, the marks he receives for those two different components are going to be rather close to each other, because that's the way judges tend to work under this system. I think it's also linked to the judges' overall impression of the program—how much impact it had, whether the jumps were solid, etc.—and the components as a whole go up or down accordingly. I just don't think it should work that way. If someone has excellent skating skills, his mark for that should be accordingly high, regardless of the quality of his interpretation, choreography, etc. And also regardless of his reputation or national rank, which is another issue... Rolling Eyes

Well, that's what I think. Someone correct me if either my facts or conclusions are way off base. Sweatdrop

sapphiresky wrote:

I had to share this quote from ONTD:

"Question: how is IJS less corrupt than 6.0?"

"In 6.0 you can just screw someone without further explanation. In IJS you have to specifically point out how you are screwing them."

ROTFLMAO Yeah...the scoring system is.....

lol! Ah...so true...
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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:15 am

sapphiresky wrote:
I had to share this quote from ONTD:

"Question: how is IJS less corrupt than 6.0?"

"In 6.0 you can just screw someone without further explanation. In IJS you have to specifically point out how you are screwing them."- from goldenbubble

ROTFLMAO Yeah...the scoring system is.....

cheers Love this comment! ROTFLMAO
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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:25 am

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2011/SEG005.HTM

Just bumping this link in case anyone wants to see live updates!
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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:38 am

I don't know in which WCH thread I should post it, so I'm posting it here too Sweatdrop

Ladies' SP starting order has just been posted. Holly cow.... Shocked
http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2011/SEG006.HTM

Yuna is skating last and Mao just before her. Panic!

GO MAO! Cheering
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PostSubject: Re: World Championships 2011 - Reports, spoilers   Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:42 am

kaarolcia wrote:
I don't know in which WCH thread I should post it, so I'm posting it here too

Ladies' SP starting order has just been posted. Holly cow.... Shocked
http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2011/SEG006.HTM

Yuna is skating last and Mao just before her.

GO MAO!

Here we are right i think cat
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