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 Cup of China 2011

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clovera
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PostSubject: Re: Cup of China 2011   Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:37 pm

Mao_Asada_sunrise wrote:
Why is Carolina Kostner competing three times?
That will be due to another (silly) rule change the ISU cooked up - the top 6 skaters/teams from the previous season's Worlds are now given the option of participating in up to three GP events instead of two. Those that do will get a a $10,000 cash bonus *but* are fined if they withdraw from any of their GP events...even if the reasons for dropping out are valid (e.g., medical emergencies). Rolling Eyes The first few years of the GP under 6.0 had a similar up-to-three policy so I wouldn't have been as bothered by it if the ISU kept the number of GP slots for each discipline. Unfortunately, they chose to reduce it by two across the board. Sweatdrop

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PostSubject: Re: Cup of China 2011   Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:33 pm

for ppl are interested in Nan Song, here is the program http://youtu.be/MkNdBllDrPM
and here is his wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_Nan

when I posted protocol (couple pages ago), I asked what do you prefer ? Jeremy / Oda or Nan Song's program.
if you look at the protocol and you will know this is just the "TES" program and the PCS is very very low.
I don't remember anything after I watched this.
He needs a better choreographer to make his career or he won't be on podium when his jumps are not stable.
because his TES scores are very close to his historical FS scores and he gained high GOE for first three jumps.
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PostSubject: Re: Cup of China 2011   Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:33 pm

Yuzuru & Oda were amazing!
This year's nationals will be so teeth-crunching nervous.
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PostSubject: Re: Cup of China 2011   Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:28 pm

clovera wrote:
Mao_Asada_sunrise wrote:
Why is Carolina Kostner competing three times?
That will be due to another (silly) rule change the ISU cooked up - the top 6 skaters/teams from the previous season's Worlds are now given the option of participating in up to three GP events instead of two. Those that do will get a a $10,000 cash bonus *but* are fined if they withdraw from any of their GP events...even if the reasons for dropping out are valid (e.g., medical emergencies). Rolling Eyes The first few years of the GP under 6.0 had a similar up-to-three policy so I wouldn't have been as bothered by it if the ISU kept the number of GP slots for each discipline. Unfortunately, they chose to reduce it by two across the board. Sweatdrop

Thank you very much for the information, clovera! Many Hearts

I also have a few more questions I'd like to ask about the GP slots Sweatdrop

1)When you wrote that the ISU reduced the number of slots for each discipline, did you mean the overall number of competitors for each GP discipline or from each country at a GP event?
2)If the top 6 skaters/teams from previous Worlds are given that option does that mean if Alissa does not qualify for the GPF in 2 events she has the option to do another one?
3)I know Mirai did not qualify to last years Worlds, but Alissa (USA) was 5th at the WC. Would that mean Mirai may also have that option if 2) is true?

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PostSubject: Re: Cup of China 2011   Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:05 am

As far as I know, the option to do 3 events must be done before the GP starts. Alissa does not have the option anymore to do 3 events. This option is given to the skater, not to the country, so if the skater declines it, it does not pass to other skaters from the same country. Mirai's chances to qualify to the GPF are gone unfortunately.
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PostSubject: Re: Cup of China 2011   Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:11 am

maowataiyo wrote:
clovera wrote:
Mao_Asada_sunrise wrote:
Why is Carolina Kostner competing three times?
That will be due to another (silly) rule change the ISU cooked up - the top 6 skaters/teams from the previous season's Worlds are now given the option of participating in up to three GP events instead of two. Those that do will get a a $10,000 cash bonus *but* are fined if they withdraw from any of their GP events...even if the reasons for dropping out are valid (e.g., medical emergencies). Rolling Eyes The first few years of the GP under 6.0 had a similar up-to-three policy so I wouldn't have been as bothered by it if the ISU kept the number of GP slots for each discipline. Unfortunately, they chose to reduce it by two across the board. Sweatdrop

Thank you very much for the information, clovera! Many Hearts

I also have a few more questions I'd like to ask about the GP slots Sweatdrop

1)When you wrote that the ISU reduced the number of slots for each discipline, did you mean the overall number of competitors for each GP discipline or from each country at a GP event?
2)If the top 6 skaters/teams from previous Worlds are given that option does that mean if Alissa does not qualify for the GPF in 2 events she has the option to do another one?
3)I know Mirai did not qualify to last years Worlds, but Alissa (USA) was 5th at the WC. Would that mean Mirai may also have that option if 2) is true?


for 1) I think Clovera means they reduced numbers of slots for every event from 12 to 10. Then see what happen in Cup of China, there are only 8 skaters in Men's event. Bad idea!
2) ISU will identify those "seeds" and they have the option to participate for 3 events but that should be confirmed before assignment announced.
3) like 2) Mirai is not seed and she didn't have the option.

Clovera, pls correct me if I am wrong Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Cup of China 2011   Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:13 am

Yuzuru...I remember you said you like cute girl not guy...uh
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PostSubject: Re: Cup of China 2011   Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:45 am

Lady_in_black wrote:
As far as I know, the option to do 3 events must be done before the GP starts. Alissa does not have the option anymore to do 3 events. This option is given to the skater, not to the country, so if the skater declines it, it does not pass to other skaters from the same country. Mirai's chances to qualify to the GPF are gone unfortunately.

shikure wrote:
for 1) I think Clovera means they reduced numbers of slots for every event from 12 to 10. Then see what happen in Cup of China, there are only 8 skaters in Men's event. Bad idea!
2) ISU will identify those "seeds" and they have the option to participate for 3 events but that should be confirmed before assignment announced.
3) like 2) Mirai is not seed and she didn't have the option.

Clovera, pls correct me if I am wrong Smile

Thank you! guys!

I was hoping we got to see Mirai more this season. But I guess I'll have to wait 'til U.S. Championships.

LOL at the Hanyu photos. I wonder why he's so giddy. Laugh

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PostSubject: Re: Cup of China 2011   Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:17 am

I started to write this reply before the Mens LP, so forgive me for repeating the points that ther posters have already mentioned. Smile' I used up my daily data transfer limit and couldn't post until today, and since I'm using a smarthphone now, it is a nightmare to change what I've already typed. Smile'

Mao_Asada_sunrise wrote:

I don't know much about figure skating techniques, but what do people mean by "textbook techniques"? I heard Kim Yu-na has that, but what about Mao? If Mao doesn't have textbook techniques, then it shows how much talent she has by being a prestigious figure skater without textbook techniques.

That's a very interesting question, actually!

I think the very concept of "textbook jumps" is pretty new. Recently I was watching some older videos on Youtube and I often saw the commentators raving about how exquisite and perfect the jumps of some skaters were - but the jumps in question a) had flaws that today would be very frowned upon by the judges (edge violations, URs, prerotation), and/or b) had flaws that are not punished that much by CoP, but can negatively impact the quality of the jump and the skater's consistency (hammer toe, wonky entrances and landings, poor ice coverage, etc.). So, were the commentators crazy? Smile No, back then the definition of a perfect jump was simply different: if a jump appeared flawless to a human eye, it was good enough.
Nowadays the arrival of slow-mo cameras, ubiquitous Youtube videos and the gradual evolution of the technical content forced people to pay attention to the little mistakes that were earlier overlooked (i.e. the edge changes) and to wonder just why some skaters are more successful at executing upper tier jumps and jump combinations.

Right now people pay more attention to those things that are awarded by CoP - correct take-offs, nice height and ice coverage, no under- or pre-rotations. This is why most people mean by saying "textbook" now - clean, impressive jumps that get huge GoEs.

Personally, I have slightly different definition of a textbook technique.

There are skaters who have good, clean, even gorgeous jumps that should ged high GoEs - but give their technique to a skater with a different body type and they will struggle. This may be caused by many things - unusual entrances or air position, "wild" jumping technique, "throwing" oneself into the jump (i.e. pushing oneself away from the ice using muscular strenght or unusualy powerful arm swings), crazy landings that the skateris able to control due to exceptionally good balance and/or knee action, etc.. This doesn't mean that their jumps are bad or sould get any deductions, just that a skater with different physical attributes would not be able to jump in the same way.

The most vivid example here would be Midori Ito. Her jumps were spectacular and breathtaking - I don't think any judge today would dare to give her less than +2 or +3 for the best of her jumps.

But what would happen if someone tried to teach a skater with huge talent but different body type the same jumping style? Well, Yukari Nakano, pretty much. She had great potential, but the wild technique with wrapped free leg (which didn't hurt Midori at all due to her small body build and enormous muscular strength) made Yukari's jumps look wonky and often underrotated; not to mention the loss of speed on the landing that made it impossible for her to master 3-3s. Sad

And so I came to my personal defitintion of a "textbook" technique - a technique that not only is correct in the eyes of CoP Wink, but also is the most optimal for the skaters to master regardless of their body type (within the limits of common sense Wink ) and minimalizes the risk of an injury.

Aoi88 brought up a very valid point - there are some less known skaters that have better technique than some skaing genuses (Sasha, Caro-Z, younger Mao). This actually makes sense - the "geniuses" are able to master the jumps quickly as young kids, and the coaches are happy enough that they land their triples, so they don't try to correct their technique (AKA "don't fix it if it ain't broke" Wink ). Meanwhile the skaters with less ideal body predispositions struggle, and so their coaches are forced to correct and correct their technique until they finally find a solution that works.

Mao grew up with many jump issues - the infamous problems with 3Lz & 3F, toe-axel on the triple toe and MIA Salchow. nlyer axels and 3L were pretty much textbook. But she came a long way since then - Raphael fixed her toe-axel and her 3T was pretty much flawless since then (especially as a solo jump), TAT brought back 3S which had no visible flaws and recently it became consistent enough to include in an exhibition. 3F is looking better with every month, and hopefully 3Lz improved as well during the off-season. Smile

Looking at how much Mao has improved in the recent years makes me a bit sad that the CoP (or at least more strict approach to the judging of the jumps) wasn't introduced earlier. Sad It makes me also a bit annoyed at the coaches who still let their pupils get away with wonky jumps. I understand that they feel under pressure, too, and and are afraid that they'll get blamed if their students suddenly lose their consistency (like Mao did at the beginning of the last season). Nevertheless, the younger the skaters are, the greater the chances of fixing their jumps and regaining their consistency in time to win some medals. Sweatdrop





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PostSubject: Re: Cup of China 2011   Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:57 pm

purplemaze wrote:
Mao_Asada_sunrise wrote:
Whether it's Adelina or Elizaveta (I really like their names, so I'll type the full names. Lol!), I'm very intrigued about the theory, so thank you for explaining it to me. I really wish Mao received teaching on the textbook techniques. Imagine who she would be right now, but then again, one thing I like about Mao is how she reacts to adversities. She would be a different person if she had the right techniques because then figure skating results would come out differently. Her challenges, which are getting back on her feet after the lack of technique caught up to her, shaped who she is now, and the Mao now is a wonderful role model, considering what she has been through.

Very well said Mao_Asada_sunrise Yep! , I absolutely agree! Sometimes being Perfect (or in this case like having textbook techniques) isn't always the only thing that matters. Yes, Mao is really so special compared to everyone else!!! Love

I agree! There's something special about Mao, and it shows whenever she performs!
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PostSubject: Re: Cup of China 2011   Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:57 pm

clovera wrote:
Mao_Asada_sunrise wrote:
Why is Carolina Kostner competing three times?
That will be due to another (silly) rule change the ISU cooked up - the top 6 skaters/teams from the previous season's Worlds are now given the option of participating in up to three GP events instead of two. Those that do will get a a $10,000 cash bonus *but* are fined if they withdraw from any of their GP events...even if the reasons for dropping out are valid (e.g., medical emergencies). Rolling Eyes The first few years of the GP under 6.0 had a similar up-to-three policy so I wouldn't have been as bothered by it if the ISU kept the number of GP slots for each discipline. Unfortunately, they chose to reduce it by two across the board. Sweatdrop

Thank you so much! Wow! I never knew about that rule!
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PostSubject: Re: Cup of China 2011   Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:01 pm

Okami wrote:
I started to write this reply before the Mens LP, so forgive me for repeating the points that ther posters have already mentioned. Smile' I used up my daily data transfer limit and couldn't post until today, and since I'm using a smarthphone now, it is a nightmare to change what I've already typed. Smile'

Mao_Asada_sunrise wrote:

I don't know much about figure skating techniques, but what do people mean by "textbook techniques"? I heard Kim Yu-na has that, but what about Mao? If Mao doesn't have textbook techniques, then it shows how much talent she has by being a prestigious figure skater without textbook techniques.

That's a very interesting question, actually!

I think the very concept of "textbook jumps" is pretty new. Recently I was watching some older videos on Youtube and I often saw the commentators raving about how exquisite and perfect the jumps of some skaters were - but the jumps in question a) had flaws that today would be very frowned upon by the judges (edge violations, URs, prerotation), and/or b) had flaws that are not punished that much by CoP, but can negatively impact the quality of the jump and the skater's consistency (hammer toe, wonky entrances and landings, poor ice coverage, etc.). So, were the commentators crazy? Smile No, back then the definition of a perfect jump was simply different: if a jump appeared flawless to a human eye, it was good enough.
Nowadays the arrival of slow-mo cameras, ubiquitous Youtube videos and the gradual evolution of the technical content forced people to pay attention to the little mistakes that were earlier overlooked (i.e. the edge changes) and to wonder just why some skaters are more successful at executing upper tier jumps and jump combinations.

Right now people pay more attention to those things that are awarded by CoP - correct take-offs, nice height and ice coverage, no under- or pre-rotations. This is why most people mean by saying "textbook" now - clean, impressive jumps that get huge GoEs.

Personally, I have slightly different definition of a textbook technique.

There are skaters who have good, clean, even gorgeous jumps that should ged high GoEs - but give their technique to a skater with a different body type and they will struggle. This may be caused by many things - unusual entrances or air position, "wild" jumping technique, "throwing" oneself into the jump (i.e. pushing oneself away from the ice using muscular strenght or unusualy powerful arm swings), crazy landings that the skateris able to control due to exceptionally good balance and/or knee action, etc.. This doesn't mean that their jumps are bad or sould get any deductions, just that a skater with different physical attributes would not be able to jump in the same way.

The most vivid example here would be Midori Ito. Her jumps were spectacular and breathtaking - I don't think any judge today would dare to give her less than +2 or +3 for the best of her jumps.

But what would happen if someone tried to teach a skater with huge talent but different body type the same jumping style? Well, Yukari Nakano, pretty much. She had great potential, but the wild technique with wrapped free leg (which didn't hurt Midori at all due to her small body build and enormous muscular strength) made Yukari's jumps look wonky and often underrotated; not to mention the loss of speed on the landing that made it impossible for her to master 3-3s. Sad

And so I came to my personal defitintion of a "textbook" technique - a technique that not only is correct in the eyes of CoP Wink, but also is the most optimal for the skaters to master regardless of their body type (within the limits of common sense Wink ) and minimalizes the risk of an injury.

Aoi88 brought up a very valid point - there are some less known skaters that have better technique than some skaing genuses (Sasha, Caro-Z, younger Mao). This actually makes sense - the "geniuses" are able to master the jumps quickly as young kids, and the coaches are happy enough that they land their triples, so they don't try to correct their technique (AKA "don't fix it if it ain't broke" Wink ). Meanwhile the skaters with less ideal body predispositions struggle, and so their coaches are forced to correct and correct their technique until they finally find a solution that works.

Mao grew up with many jump issues - the infamous problems with 3Lz & 3F, toe-axel on the triple toe and MIA Salchow. nlyer axels and 3L were pretty much textbook. But she came a long way since then - Raphael fixed her toe-axel and her 3T was pretty much flawless since then (especially as a solo jump), TAT brought back 3S which had no visible flaws and recently it became consistent enough to include in an exhibition. 3F is looking better with every month, and hopefully 3Lz improved as well during the off-season. Smile

Looking at how much Mao has improved in the recent years makes me a bit sad that the CoP (or at least more strict approach to the judging of the jumps) wasn't introduced earlier. Sad It makes me also a bit annoyed at the coaches who still let their pupils get away with wonky jumps. I understand that they feel under pressure, too, and and are afraid that they'll get blamed if their students suddenly lose their consistency (like Mao did at the beginning of the last season). Nevertheless, the younger the skaters are, the greater the chances of fixing their jumps and regaining their consistency in time to win some medals. Sweatdrop






Thank you! I'm sorry that I made you write such a long analysis!

I just wondered because it really really really impresses me about how Mao won two World titles and Olympic silver medal with her technique. Tatiana and Nikolai were right. Mao definitely has a true athletic body, and she is flexible and talented. I feel like she's one of the few people who can pull off learning the right techniques, even at the age of 21.
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PostSubject: Re: Cup of China 2011   Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:55 pm

Mao_Asada_sunrise wrote:

I just wondered because it really really really impresses me about how Mao won two World titles and Olympic silver medal with her technique. Tatiana and Nikolai were right. Mao definitely has a true athletic body, and she is flexible and talented. I feel like she's one of the few people who can pull off learning the right techniques, even at the age of 21.

And not to mention how amazingly hard she works- there's talent, and then there's the sweat and dedication that's needed to change technique to a consistent level!

Thanks for a great analysis Okami!
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PostSubject: Re: Cup of China 2011   Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:43 pm

Okami wrote:


And so I came to my personal defitintion of a "textbook" technique - a technique that not only is correct in the eyes of CoP Wink, but also is the most optimal for the skaters to master regardless of their body type (within the limits of common sense Wink ) and minimalizes the risk of an injury.

Aoi88 brought up a very valid point - there are some less known skaters that have better technique than some skaing genuses (Sasha, Caro-Z, younger Mao). This actually makes sense - the "geniuses" are able to master the jumps quickly as young kids, and the coaches are happy enough that they land their triples, so they don't try to correct their technique (AKA "don't fix it if it ain't broke" Wink ). Meanwhile the skaters with less ideal body predispositions struggle, and so their coaches are forced to correct and correct their technique until they finally find a solution that works.


The thing is the coaches who let their skaters get away with bad technique do their young girls especially a disservice because there is no guarantee the body type will remain ideal. If you look at a lot of the older skaters who have lasted long time, they have had good technique. For example Ando, has very good jumping technique. Also I suspect it takes more work, effort to do the jumps the incorrect way. Dick Button and Peggy Flemming have both commented on how skaters fall back on their technique when the pressure is on. Not to mention absolutely injuries.

Some of these coaches do this perhaps because you have parents crying for results now and care more that their kid has all the triples, and winning now. Thus long term is sacrificed for short term. Hopefully now that the system rewards correctly done jumps, more coaches will care about teaching the young kids how to jump correctly.

Its why so many people are high on Elizaveta. She has really great technique (although the jumps don't seem as big as Adelina's so we will see) And people think that is going to serve Elizaveta in good stead when she gets older and her body changes. There will be just far less things to fix.
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PostSubject: Re: Cup of China 2011   Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:14 am

sapphiresky wrote:
Mao_Asada_sunrise wrote:

I just wondered because it really really really impresses me about how Mao won two World titles and Olympic silver medal with her technique. Tatiana and Nikolai were right. Mao definitely has a true athletic body, and she is flexible and talented. I feel like she's one of the few people who can pull off learning the right techniques, even at the age of 21.

And not to mention how amazingly hard she works- there's talent, and then there's the sweat and dedication that's needed to change technique to a consistent level!

Thanks for a great analysis Okami!

Yes! Her dedication and determination make her a wonderful role model!

I can't wait for this weekend! I'm excited for Mao! I just want to see her skate!
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PostSubject: Re: Cup of China 2011   Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:59 am

bekalc wrote:
Some of these coaches do this perhaps because you have parents crying for results now and care more that their kid has all the triples, and winning now.

This...

You took the words right out of my mouth. I don't think it's fair to generalize and blame all coaches... From experience, some skating moms and dads are quite scary.
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