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 Skater's Least Favorite Elements

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Alokya
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PostSubject: Skater's Least Favorite Elements   Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:04 pm

Guys - I found this on IceNetwork.

I think Jeremy Abbot's comment on spins is especially quite interesting, along with Adam agreeing with him. What do you think?

http://www.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120626&content_id=33953484&vkey=ice_news
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ballerinamao
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PostSubject: Re: Skater's Least Favorite Elements   Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:01 pm

interesting article, but it really makes me appreciate mao's effortles loop even more and admire how this jump is one of her favourites..
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illani
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PostSubject: Re: Skater's Least Favorite Elements   Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:06 pm

I also thought the spin comments were interesting. As a fan, I've been frustrated with the way the scoring system handles spins, as it seems to put emphasis on changes of position and number of revolutions in each position to get levels, rather than focusing on how fast or centered or well-positioned the spin is (at least, it seems that way to me). IMO, the latter qualities are the things that give a spin impact, and make it fun for the audience to watch. I find it interesting that Jeremy and the others are also frustrated with the system, and find spinning less fun than it used to be. I like Alex Johnson's suggestion of making one spin a choreographed spin, which would presumably give the skater more freedom...
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PostSubject: Re: Skater's Least Favorite Elements   Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:00 am

illani wrote:
I also thought the spin comments were interesting. As a fan, I've been frustrated with the way the scoring system handles spins, as it seems to put emphasis on changes of position and number of revolutions in each position to get levels, rather than focusing on how fast or centered or well-positioned the spin is (at least, it seems that way to me). IMO, the latter qualities are the things that give a spin impact, and make it fun for the audience to watch. I find it interesting that Jeremy and the others are also frustrated with the system, and find spinning less fun than it used to be. I like Alex Johnson's suggestion of making one spin a choreographed spin, which would presumably give the skater more freedom...

ITA. If I remember correctly, they made those rules because they wanted to emphasize on difficulty, not on what is most pleasing to watch. I bet spinning isn't as fun as it used to be. It's not as fun to watch as it used to be either.

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PostSubject: Re: Skater's Least Favorite Elements   Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:38 pm

illani wrote:
I also thought the spin comments were interesting. As a fan, I've been frustrated with the way the scoring system handles spins, as it seems to put emphasis on changes of position and number of revolutions in each position to get levels, rather than focusing on how fast or centered or well-positioned the spin is (at least, it seems that way to me).

Actually, it's no longer true. Smile It was this way during the early days of CoP, but because the fans and coaches were complaining that many changes of position made spins seem wobbly and unattractive and some of the positions were difficult to achieve or dangerous for some skaters (for example the Biellman position made Miki's back hurt) the rules were changed.

For example, back in 2006 it was enough to hold spin for 2 revolutions, the Biellman position was practically necessary to get lvl4 on the layback spin, and the skaters needed many difficult variations for the spin to achieve a high level and there was no limit on how many times you could use a given position in one program.

Right now you can't repeat the spin positions in a program (or they won't count as a feature), the Biellman position is no longer necessary, the positions need to be held longer (4 revolutions) and speed + timing to the music are important if the skater wants to get high GoEs. Some new level features were also introduced, such as accelerating during the spin or holding the position for 8 revolutions.

For example, compare CCoSp (change of foot combination spin) from Shizuka Arakawa's Olympic LP (it's the final spin) and Mao's LP this season. Both got lvl4, but:
Shizuka: backward camel (outside edge) - backward camel (inside edge) - donut (oe) -backward sit spin (oe) - (change of foot) -forward camel (ie)- (change of foot) -backward sit (oe) - backward I spin (oe)
Mao: forward camel (ie) - forward camel (oe) - forward twist sit spin (ie)- (change of foot) - backward Y spin (oe)

Mao changed positions twice (camel to sit, sit to Y), while Shizuka - 5 times. (Shizuka actually had one of the more esthetically pleasing spins from that time; some others were really slow and messy).

So, on the plus side, speed and centering is important now, and ISU limited the overuse of the Biellman position.
On the minus side:
*The ISU [says] they want to see more variety in spins, but when you take away options every year, there will only be less. It's now to the point this season where the ISU has taken away so many spin variations that Adam Rippon and I have exactly identical spins."

Basically ISU, while aiming to limit the repetition of the positions in a program got a bit overzealous. To put it in the simplest terms, they limited the use of the whole "groups" of positions.
For example: the male skaters used to be able to use sit spin variations to fulfil both the flying spin and the spin in one position requirement in the SP. Now it's virtually impossible, so they have to use either camel spin variations or upright spin variations. I noticed it's especially difficult for men, because they are not flexible enough to achieve positions that would count as a feature for camel and upright spin. In result, most male skaters aim for lvl4 camel spin and that ghastly overused catchfoot position.
Another example would be Mao's LP: she used to have two change of foot spins and two flying entrances (and they really went perfectly well with the music) but she had to remove one flying entry and change one CCoSP into CoSp (still lovely spins, especially the final one, but they didn't fit the music as perfectly).

All in all, I think ISU's intentions were good, but they accidentally ended up really limiting the skaters' options.

Still, I wish the skaters tried to work more around the limitations... There are plenty of positions that do not require great flexibility, but look great (upright back attitude, like Yukina in Twilight Waltz EX, upright back attitude with hand assist, like Miki in Aranjuez EX, upright forward attitude like Sasha in Dark Eyes SP Worlds 2005, or Mao in Nocturne SP, or Nobunari in the Tchaikovsky LP, the layover camel or broken camel, the Toller Cranston spin, the Miki sideways sit spin, simple layback, forward scratch like Sasha in Swan Lake, headless scratch...)

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illani
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PostSubject: Re: Skater's Least Favorite Elements   Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:12 am

^ inskate, I stand corrected, and thank you so much for the detailed explanation! Worship Worship Thank you! Thank you!

I admit, keeping up with the technicalities of CoP is not one of my strengths. Whirly Embarassed I see now what they meant about limited options for spins...
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PostSubject: Re: Skater's Least Favorite Elements   Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:42 am

inskate, thank you for explaining! Thank you!
That was very ineteresting to read, since I'm not very knowledgeble about CoP.

While I agree with ISU about limiting the use of the same spin (watching Irina's programs with mostly Bielman spins was boring), I do wish they would allow more variety. Spins are my favourite part of skating and seeing skaters using the same spins takes away the excitment.
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PostSubject: Re: Skater's Least Favorite Elements   Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:29 am

Thank you inskate for explanation.
And, welcome back to the forum. Sorry if I'm mistaken, but I think you haven't posted here for quite a while. I always appreciated your information and explanation. I hoped you were doing good when you were away. So, I'm happy to see you again. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Skater's Least Favorite Elements   Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:35 am

linglang wrote:
Thank you inskate for explanation.
And, welcome back to the forum. Sorry if I'm mistaken, but I think you haven't posted here for quite a while. I always appreciated your information and explanation. I hoped you were doing good when you were away. So, I'm happy to see you again. Very Happy

Thank you, linglang! Yes, I haven't posted regularly in quite a while (my life's been a bit hectic due to work & studies), but I still followed the news and discussions I love you. I hope I'll have more time to post now that the holidays have finally started. Smile

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