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 NHK Trophy 2012

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Alokya
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:09 pm

Who else wants to switch back to 6.0? The only reason IJS got implemented is because of the stupid American media that kept screaming about Sale/Pelltier not winning. They are the reason that the ISU awarded two sets of gold medals and ultimately the reason why IJS happened. BLEH.
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:38 pm

I am pretty content with COP, because there is no perfect system, which means there will always be results that are close, and there will always be someone discontent with the outcome.

the thing is COP only makes sense when people bother to look at the protocol, and when people bother to try to understand when and why certain marks are given! I think the system in itself is working fine, but it's some viewers who need to sit down and try to understand, how the system works!

( and to the comment from mishin, him just saying that Mao landed two tripples is the perfect indication to him beeing one of the people who haven't looked in the protocols, and simply not reflecting on the big lead Mao had going into the freeskate)









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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:51 pm

Alokya wrote:
Who else wants to switch back to 6.0? The only reason IJS got implemented is because of the stupid American media that kept screaming about Sale/Pelltier not winning. They are the reason that the ISU awarded two sets of gold medals and ultimately the reason why IJS happened. BLEH.

If it had been 6.0, Mao would have been unbeatable with her technical difficulties. Yuna is the beneficiary of IJS, who has been rewarded with huge GOE. However, as she usually can't skate clean in the long program, she would have big troubles in 6.0.

But now, Mao has passed her prime time in my opinion. So it doesn't matter much anyway. Sorry for my English.
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:06 pm

Alokya wrote:
Who else wants to switch back to 6.0? The only reason IJS got implemented is because of the stupid American media that kept screaming about Sale/Pelltier not winning. They are the reason that the ISU awarded two sets of gold medals and ultimately the reason why IJS happened. BLEH.

And talking about IJS, sometimes it is just ridiculous. Back in 06-10, it is usually the case that a triple axel from Mao doesn't earn her more points than a 2A from Yuna, because of the downgrade thing and the insane GOE. For example, in 2007 GPF, Mao and Yuna's LPs are far from the same level in terms of difficulty, however their scores were pretty close, not to mention yuna fell on her loop while mao skated clean.

How many woman skaters can do a triple axel? You can count with on hand. And how many of them can do a 3Lz3T or 3F3T combination? Quite many. But the IJS simply can't reflect that.

Sorry about my English again.
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:07 pm

AmazingGraceMao wrote:
Alokya wrote:
Who else wants to switch back to 6.0? The only reason IJS got implemented is because of the stupid American media that kept screaming about Sale/Pelltier not winning. They are the reason that the ISU awarded two sets of gold medals and ultimately the reason why IJS happened. BLEH.

If it had been 6.0, Mao would have been unbeatable with her technical difficulties. Yuna is the beneficiary of IJS, who has been rewarded with huge GOE. However, as she usually can't skate clean in the long program, she would have big troubles in 6.0.

But now, Mao has passed her prime time in my opinion. So it doesn't matter much anyway. Sorry for my English
.

I disagree, Mao's only recently started to get the PCS she deserves, and her reworking her jumps is not finished yet, it takes time and we should not rush Mao to much, the fact that Mao is landed a beautiful 3A and 3-3 in practice as well as all the other jumps is the perfect indication to Mao beeing on the right track. and don't forget that the sal and lutz only recently where added back, and put the fact that sato is STILL changing Mao's jump by making her add more speed when Mao goes into her jumps, also greatly affects her timing and thereby her jumps, and also unlike many others Mao has a difficult entrance to most of her jumps, so it's really many things sato and Mao are changing at the same time!

the progress she is making is evident, just look at her huge 2A-3T it was massive she did at NHK, Mao just needs more time, she herself said that she want to upgrade her difficulty further and a skater who doesn't have confidence in her ability and progress would never say that, afterall she knows her condition the best.

I just hope that Mao doesn't push herself too hard cause the expectations she has from everyone is massive!




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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:15 pm

ballerinamao wrote:
AmazingGraceMao wrote:
Alokya wrote:
Who else wants to switch back to 6.0? The only reason IJS got implemented is because of the stupid American media that kept screaming about Sale/Pelltier not winning. They are the reason that the ISU awarded two sets of gold medals and ultimately the reason why IJS happened. BLEH.

If it had been 6.0, Mao would have been unbeatable with her technical difficulties. Yuna is the beneficiary of IJS, who has been rewarded with huge GOE. However, as she usually can't skate clean in the long program, she would have big troubles in 6.0.

But now, Mao has passed her prime time in my opinion. So it doesn't matter much anyway. Sorry for my English
.

I disagree, Mao's only recently started to get the PCS she deserves, and her reworking her jumps is not finished yet, it takes time and we should not rush Mao to much, the fact that Mao is landed a beautiful 3A and 3-3 in practice as well as all the other jumps is the perfect indication to Mao beeing on the right track. and don't forget that the sal and lutz only recently where added back, and put the fact that sato is STILL changing Mao's jump by making her add more speed when Mao goes into her jumps, also greatly affects her timing and thereby her jumps, and also unlike many others Mao has a difficult entrance to most of her jumps, so it's really many things sato and Mao are changing at the same time!

the progress she is making is evident, just look at her huge 2A-3T it was massive she did at NHK, Mao just needs more time, she herself said that she want to upgrade her difficulty further and a skater who doesn't have confidence in her ability and progress would never say that, afterall she knows her condition the best.

I just hope that Mao doesn't push herself too hard cause the expectations she has from everyone is massive!



Sure I believe Mao would come back strong sooner or later, but we can't deny the fact that one's jumping ability does decrease with ages... that is sad but inevitable...
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:32 pm

I know that ones jumping ability decreases with age, but Mao is still only 22, and her recent jump struggles are mostly due to Sato and Mao still making big changes, i read in an article after NHK that Sato is making Mao add even more speed when going into her jumps, and that surely affected her timing, my reaction when i read that was are they still changing her jumps further, and doing that through she is three month short of practice and the gp is just few weeks away, i think we are pretty lucky when we think of that, cause which skater would dare to do these changes just before the new season starts, i'm just asking? her even attending the GP event was a gift for me as a fan!

which is why i think that Mao's recent mistakes either because of the changes she and Sato are doing or it's mentally because she wanted to make sure she didn't repeat the same mistakes as in COC. or probably because of both. She is afterall a perfectionist, how many times did we hear Mao say in her interviews that she wanted to give to perfect skates. her own standards are sky high as it is, she is the hardest judge on herself, we shouldn't forget that!



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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:39 pm

ballerinamao wrote:
I am pretty content with COP, because there is no perfect system, which means there will always be results that are close, and there will always be someone discontent with the outcome.

the thing is COP only makes sense when people bother to look at the protocol, and when people bother to try to understand when and why certain marks are given! I think the system in itself is working fine, but it's some viewers who need to sit down and try to understand, how the system works!

( and to the comment from mishin, him just saying that Mao landed two tripples is the perfect indication to him beeing one of the people who haven't looked in the protocols, and simply not reflecting on the big lead Mao had going into the freeskate)

I agree ballerinamao-it seems like a lot of people just watch the competition and claim politics without looking at the protocols Very Mad . For example, if some of the Mao haters bothered to view the protocol, they'd see that Mao's 2a+3t got +1.2 GOE, all of Mao's non-jump elements (which most people don't care about) got L4 and high GOE (deservedly), and Mao had a 9 point lead on Akiko after SP (deservedly too-she was so on Cheering ) maybe then they'll stop claiming that Mao should give back her medal (WTF?) and saying she should be ashamed (she was ashamed if you saw her interview Very Mad )

As for Mishin, Mao landed a huge 2a+3t, a 3lo+2lo+2lo in the second half of the program and a 3f. 1+1+1 does not equal 2, and it's not like she just did 3s and 3t as solo jumps in the 1st half of the program.

(Sorry for the rant-it's just that I was going through the NHK thread in GS and there were a lot of posts claiming doom and gloom on FS because of NHK, which put me in a bad mood)





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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:57 pm

you don't need to say sorry I-spiralmao, I understand how you are feeling Yep! but there will always be ignorant people who just don't want to look at the whole picture and simply chose only to focus on one part of it!

anyway I am dying to see the medal ceremony i wonder why it's taking so long to load it!


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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:11 pm

l-spiralmao wrote:


(Sorry for the rant-it's just that I was going through the NHK thread in GS and there were a lot of posts claiming doom and gloom on FS because of NHK, which put me in a bad mood)


Mao being the target of bashers is the saddest thing... I don't even want to go to GS, cause last time in COC there were already lots of negative posts, this time you can only imagine... That is why I really hope that Mao would come back strong to shut them up.
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:10 pm

i just re-watched Mao's sp, and my god it really becomes more and more amazing the more i see it, she really sold the program, i just couldn't take my eyes of her, her presence, timing, and joy on the ice is just incredible. and I'm so in love with the footwork.

then i re watched the fs and i again felt so captivated by her performance, her skating is just soo natural, and i just love how she floats on the ice, when she goes from one element to another! Swoon








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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:27 pm

please allow me to add my 2 cents regarding Mao winning this competition.
I agree with most of what you guys have already stated.
I did have my long rambling rant already in this thread so I will try to keep this brief.

1st: Mao won this competition b/c her superbly choreographed SP by Lori Nichol.
she received all positive GoE on every element....GoE = how well each element is executed.
she received higher goe on her 2axel by adding a difficult entry
both 3f/2lo & 3lo out of connecting steps were effortless.
all of her spins(layback, flying camel & combo spin) received level4 + goe
and top it off, this is,IMO, Mao's best footwork sequence so far.. why?
she fulfilled all the requirement of bullet points to get high goe.
*good energy & execution
*good speed with varying speed.
*good clarity & precision(good edge quality)
*multi directional skating(forward,backward,clock-wise, counter-clock-wise)
*deep and clean edges,including entry and exit of all turns)***counters, rockers, brackets, *best twizzles..
*commitment of whole body to accuracy of steps(mohawks, choctaws, toe-steps,progressives)
*creativity and originality
***effortless throughout...ding,ding,ding...Mao's trade mark(silky smooth)
*element matched to music structure)
Mao had over 9 points cushion(67.95 to 58.6)

in LP: she only landed 3 triples but 2a/3t was,perhaps, her best one ever(+ 1.2 goe)
and 3lo/2lo/2lo was performed in the 2nd half(10 % bonus) and good quality
all of her non-jumping elements, combo spins w/flying entry,combo spins w/change position/foot, flying camel spin, were all level4 with positive goe
straight line steps, perhaps Mao's strongest element now, received level4 and she should have received all +3 goe, IMO (six +3 goe & three +2 goe)
and choreo. spiral received +2 goe from every judge.

so, final analysis,Mao won the SP convincingly with over 9 points cushion over Akiko.
Akiko won convincingly in the LP with her strong technical contents(mainly 6 triple jumps)

over all Mao won but it could have went either way.
if I were judging, I would gave Akiko higher performance/execution score over Mao in the LP.
Mao should received higher SS(skating skills) and other 3 elements....even
as I stated in my earlier post, this new judging system "IJS' or "CoP"
the judges and tech. panel are evaluating each element how well each element were executed(jumps,spins,spiral, steps). another word, this system says" the SUM of the parts is greater than the WHOLE.
plus, this is my opinion, that a person with a superior skating skills(p chan & c kostner) tends to receive very generous other remaining components score(transitions, p/e, ch,in).

this is one area "basic skating skills" I was hoping coach Mr. Nobuo Sato could help Mao the most and it is finally recognized by the International Judges and getting rewarded this season,IMO.

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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:35 pm

fgr8sktrfn wrote:
please allow me to add my 2 cents regarding Mao winning this competition.
I agree with most of what you guys have already stated.
I did have my long rambling rant already in this thread so I will try to keep this brief.

over all Mao won but it could have went either way.
if I were judging, I would gave Akiko higher performance/execution score over Mao in the LP.
Mao should received higher SS(skating skills) and other 3 elements....even
as I stated in my earlier post, this new judging system "IJS' or "CoP"
the judges and tech. panel are evaluating each element how well each element were executed(jumps,spins,spiral, steps). another word, this system says" the SUM of the parts is greater than the WHOLE.
plus, this is my opinion, that a person with a superior skating skills(p chan & c kostner) tends to receive very generous other remaining components score(transitions, p/e, ch,in).

this is one area "basic skating skills" I was hoping coach Mr. Nobuo Sato could help Mao the most and it is finally recognized by the International Judges and getting rewarded this season,IMO.


Dude, I agree with every word you say. Rockstar Let us hope the judges do recognize the improved skating skills of Mao and see how Mao's PCS goes in the rest of the season.
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:45 pm

From Maia's tweet














I love to see Mao eating. Looks so delicious Razz
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:00 pm

So I've been gone for a couple days, and can't go through all the many comments here, but I have heard lots of talk about the "unfair" or "biased" judging for Mao at NHK. I'm pretty sure I know how a lot of the comments on here are going. So sorry if I'm preaching to the choir, but this is really pissing me off. How many times have we seen this happen to other skaters? How many more times has Mao been gypped instead of favored? But this time, it seems like everyone's maker a bigger deal out of it than ever. While I agree that there is a lot of unfair and biased judging going on and I certainly don't agree with it, I just hate to see everyone making a bigger deal of it than usual when it happened to my favorite skater. And what I hate even more is that some people are bashing Mao when this is not even her fault. Not saying that Mao really was judged with favoritism for a fact or that she didn't deserve to win.

Here is the English version of the article posted in Russian yesterday of Plushenko's coach's criticism on the whole bad judging/ Mao situation. Or at least I think that's what it is. The pictures are different so I'm not sure it's the exact same article.
http://en.rsport.ru/other_sports/20121126/632871103.html
I don't know about you guys, but my browser does not always give me the option to translate foreign languages. For this one I had that problem, but I was sent a link for an English version in my google alerts for figure skating. So here it is in case anyone still wants to read it.

While coaches have a valid right to be concerned about the judging, again, I hate to hear all the uproar the time it happens to Mao Sad.


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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:03 pm

linglang wrote:
From Maia's tweet
This is so cute! Love Hearts
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:49 pm

ballerinamao wrote:

hey does anyone have the medal ceremony?
I'm also looking for this.

AmazingGraceMao wrote:
babayaga wrote:
Short interview in Russian of Lisa's coach Mishin about Lisa's participation in GPF:

I post it here since he made a comment about Mao's win: "It is hard to compete when, for example, a Japanese athlete Mao Asada did two triples in her free skate and still received high scores and finished first ... The components score often reflects not what happened on the ice, but how long one's career is. This situation worries me a little."

Disappointed

For the record, Mao did 3 triples in FS, not two. And this is only a freaking GP event with the home advantage. If anyone recalls, yuna also won with 3 triples in 2009 SA beating Flatt who did 7 triples due to her huge lead in SP. It is not like this is the first time it is happening. The system is known to be flawed for a long time. I just hope Mao would come out with a strong performance in GPF to shut those voices up.

For a coach like Mishin to say something like that is definitely not good. People will definitely be influenced. I just hope when they bothered to comment like this they also bothered to check even just the protocols. Saying Mao was given high component marks because of her status or longevity in the sports is -- I can't say it's crap or it's true. There's truth somewhat in it -- well, not all who has a long career earns this. But those who do earns the marks because they have worked hard to improve season by season. The longer they stay in the sport the better their skills become even if they lose the jumps they so easily have done when they were very young. When they skate, it's no longer mostly about how many and what jumps they have made but rather the overall performance.

Yes, Mao landed just 3 triples. She only did three but two of which were in combinations and she did them beautifully. And its not as if she didn't do any other jumps. Sure she popped one but she did clean doubles for the rest. Since I spoiled myself reading the results in the FB page I actually thought it's like GP2010 or WC2012 all over again and actually dreaded watching the video. When I finally did I was very surprised. When we look past the jumps and just focus watching the performance she gave, it wasn't bad. For me the jumps didn't affect the performance as a whole. She continued throughout even during the pop on the sal. It may not be on the same technical difficulty as most of the competitors jump-wise but she also did not disregard the rest of the elements and executed them well being the only one to actually get all level 4. The results could have gone either way here but it's not as if Mao won with a large margin after the FS. Just 0.05 points eh.

And AmazingGraceMao, thanks for reminding us of Yuna's SA 2009 performance. That would seem like what happened to Mao. Yuna delivered a stellar short breaking her record again and earning even a bigger cushion from the rest of the field. She delivered 5 triples but only three were clean, had a fall, doubled some of her jumps and got three URs two of which were on the triples. Rachael delivered seven triples, no URs and no DGs but with an invalid spin and although she beat Yuna in the long it was only by less than 5 points. Yuna still beat her overall by a huge margin. Looking at the protocols there and comparing it to Mao's NHK, Mao still had a higher TES compared to Yuna. Performance-wise, the problems with Yuna's jumps that day affected the flow of the program and was reflected in the PCS she got and I don't remember an uproar from them when Yuna won in this competition -- with a huge margin at that.

fgr8sktrfn wrote:

entire post

ITA with you. Thumbs up!

I hope Mao will continue to work on doing clean jumps, learn to let go of over analyzing things and finally skate that program clean. She has already made so many improvements but it seems others only continue to look at the jumps and ignore the rest she has to offer.
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:26 am

Hi everyone! This is my second post as a new member of this forum.

I've been lurking in this forum for more than 2 years and just today, I registered. Although I am happily contented to your updates regarding Mao, I cannot withstand the recent bashing of Mao's winning in NHK. First of all I am not a technical person for ice skating to start with but I am speaking as an audience. I did not personally watch her performance but I did watch in youtube. First of all skating is not only power jumps. If the skater nail the jumps, it doesn't mean that it will captivate us the audience. I watched other skaters that completed jumps in their programs but still did not captivate me on their performance. There's something's missing on their programs

There are other elements that Mao executed effortlessly beautiful and she did perform as a whole in FP. And I agree to high GOEs of those elements. For me, I saw Mao as swan on her FP (with pop jumps).

People should not be subjective, they should look at the whole picture (like the other member post here). Before FP, Mao has almost 10 points lead due to her score in SP. They should not be hard on Mao. It's not her fault that she performed superb in SP but bombed in FP. She deserved her PCS, except for program execution I guess (Akiko should have more than Mao). Also, they should know how to count triples/look at the quality of the jumps and check other elements before judging Mao's win.

Anyway, we should have move on and wait for her Grand Prix Final performance. I hope that she will be happy on every performance that she deliver (plus be physically and mentally strong in every competition).
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:49 am

kisses wrote:
Hi everyone! This is my second post as a new member of this forum.

Welcome to the forum, kisses! cheers

I also had been watching this forum for a long time and joined the day before yesterday.

It makes me feel warm that so many people love and support Mao. sunny
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:07 am

Wow!So many newbies!!! I'm so grateful that you joined us lovelys!!! Huge welcome everyone!!! Swoon Daisies for you
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:05 am

http://sportsnavi.yahoo.co.jp/winter/skate/figure/text/201211270001-spnavi_1.html

I just used google translate for this article and it seemed to be an explanation of why Mao got those high marks for her FS at NHK.

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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:06 am

babayaga wrote:
Short interview in Russian of Lisa's coach Mishin about Lisa's participation in GPF: http://www.rsport.ru/figure_skating/20121126/632822063.html

I post it here since he made a comment about Mao's win: "It is hard to compete when, for example, a Japanese athlete Mao Asada did two triples in her free skate and still received high scores and finished first ... The components score often reflects not what happened on the ice, but how long one's career is. This situation worries me a little."

Rolling Eyes Right...especially your other student Plushenko right, Mr. Mishin? How ironic of him to say it, he should have used his own student as an example...Besides Mao's score wasn't even that high.

The components score reflect one's skills on the ice, which really only develop as one matures. A lot of the younger skaters have the jumps, but when people watch them at the rink, many say that they don't have the ability or the speed to fill the rink. Liza, for example, has great jumps, but she pretty much uses half the rink most of the time, and I notice this even on TV- which becomes more evident live. This will come with time, and her PCS should come.
Besides, everyone had to start from the bottom and work their way up to show that they deserve PCS. All of this generation's skaters, Mao included, had to work from winning with high TES before they got the PCS.

PJ Kwong's blog from CBC:
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/figureskating/opinion/2012/11/grand-prix-figure-skating-season-a-head-scratcher.html

"In checking things out for myself, what I discovered was that what Asada did, she did very well and was appropriately rewarded. The same could be said for Suzuki. The issue came down to the math and the fact that for the second time in a row, Suzuki placed fifth in the short program and was unable to close the gap in the free."

CBC Commentators (Tracy, Kurt) were not that surprised with the outcome, and said that Mao was lucky. They certainly didn't scream about it.

Actually, I realized that this situation was similar to Skate Canada. Akiko lost there by more points- similar situation though. She was 5th in SP, did much better in FP, but KOsmond still won despite not doing as well in the FP.

Again, I hope the ISU doesn't target the scoring against any particular skater based on the backlash from this competition Neutral especially with the competition being in Russia next.
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:15 am

sapphiresky wrote:

PJ Kwong's blog from CBC:
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/figureskating/opinion/2012/11/grand-prix-figure-skating-season-a-head-scratcher.html

"In checking things out for myself, what I discovered was that what Asada did, she did very well and was appropriately rewarded. The same could be said for Suzuki. The issue came down to the math and the fact that for the second time in a row, Suzuki placed fifth in the short program and was unable to close the gap in the free."

CBC Commentators (Tracy, Kurt) were not that surprised with the outcome, and said that Mao was lucky. They certainly didn't scream about it.

Actually, I realized that this situation was similar to Skate Canada. Akiko lost there by more points- similar situation though. She was 5th in SP, did much better in FP, but KOsmond still won despite not doing as well in the FP.

Again, I hope the ISU doesn't target the scoring against any particular skater based on the backlash from this competition Neutral especially with the competition being in Russia next.

Glad to read they have finally calmed down, watched the performance as a whole and got enlightened a bit.
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:46 am

babayaga wrote:
Short interview in Russian of Lisa's coach Mishin about Lisa's participation in GPF: http://www.rsport.ru/figure_skating/20121126/632822063.html

I post it here since he made a comment about Mao's win: "It is hard to compete when, for example, a Japanese athlete Mao Asada did two triples in her free skate and still received high scores and finished first ... The components score often reflects not what happened on the ice, but how long one's career is. This situation worries me a little."

Like what happened to Plushenko at Euros 2012, right? Wink In the SP, TR 7.50 without anything but cross-overs between the jumps (it should have been something around 4.50, in my opinion, because, since your step sequence IS an element, it must not be counted in the TR mark, the judges should have watched what there was BETWEEN the elements: NOTHING). His SS are one of the worst among the top men and he is still getting 9s just because of his speed: speed doesn't mean good ability in using the skates! I think plushy is certainly one of the skaters who receive exaggerated PCS, so, why is Mishin worrying? He was second (close to first) in the Euros SP without a quad, when he is the first to say that the quad is the Men key, and no-one complained about it. So, Mishing should have said that Plushenko deserved to be 4th or 5th in his Euros SP because he didn't have a quad when others did?
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:48 am


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