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 NHK Trophy 2012

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Star85
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:51 am

polosatik wrote:
AmazingGraceMao wrote:
Mao2012 wrote:
but I'm afraid to say that, watching her combo at slow motion, the 3F was definitely UR, she was lucky that they considered it clean...

No, I don't think that 3F was UR. The height was quite good in that 3F (especially compared with the one in COC SP). I am afraid it is the pre-rotation on the 2lo (which in inevitable) which gave you the impression.
Exactly. The problem with loop is that in combos pre rotation is almost usual thing, that's why a lot of combos with loop usually UR while the single jumps is ratified. I watched many versions of Mao SP and everyone said her flip was fine. I remember Miki got her UR of loop combos cause of pre rotation,then she stop doing her 3-3 , which I found was good, judges should learn this issue more. I heard from Russian technical specialist about pre rotation on loop jumps, and that some specialist are not knowledgable about it and mark UR automaticlly. Evil or Very Mad

This pisses me off. Why the hell do they have specialists (and I'm sure judges too) who are not completely knowledgeable Frustrated ?! The skaters, the fans, and the whole sport relies on these people, and when they don't know what they're doing, it makes skating that much more subjective than it already is. ISU needs to see to it that the specialists and judges are completely educated, tested, and qualified. Funky judging and subjectivity is one thing that turns people off about the sport. I've read countless comments throughout the years of people threatening not to watch skating anymore because of this. I recently learned the judges are not paid, plus they are selected by the host country for GP events and that country pays for their accommodations/expenses. Now this! Come on ISU, this is starting to look really bad.
---------------------------------------------------------

Thanks so much for the translation Pochi! It always makes me feel better to here a good length interview with positive news!

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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:42 pm

Star85 wrote:
polosatik wrote:
AmazingGraceMao wrote:
Mao2012 wrote:
but I'm afraid to say that, watching her combo at slow motion, the 3F was definitely UR, she was lucky that they considered it clean...

No, I don't think that 3F was UR. The height was quite good in that 3F (especially compared with the one in COC SP). I am afraid it is the pre-rotation on the 2lo (which in inevitable) which gave you the impression.
Exactly. The problem with loop is that in combos pre rotation is almost usual thing, that's why a lot of combos with loop usually UR while the single jumps is ratified. I watched many versions of Mao SP and everyone said her flip was fine. I remember Miki got her UR of loop combos cause of pre rotation,then she stop doing her 3-3 , which I found was good, judges should learn this issue more. I heard from Russian technical specialist about pre rotation on loop jumps, and that some specialist are not knowledgable about it and mark UR automaticlly. Evil or Very Mad

This pisses me off. Why the hell do they have specialists (and I'm sure judges too) who are not completely knowledgeable Frustrated ?! The skaters, the fans, and the whole sport relies on these people, and when they don't know what they're doing, it makes skating that much more subjective than it already is. ISU needs to see to it that the specialists and judges are completely educated, tested, and qualified. Funky judging and subjectivity is one thing that turns people off about the sport. I've read countless comments throughout the years of people threatening not to watch skating anymore because of this. I recently learned the judges are not paid, plus they are selected by the host country for GP events and that country pays for their accommodations/expenses. Now this! Come on ISU, this is starting to look really bad.
---------------------------------------------------------

Thanks so much for the translation Pochi! It always makes me feel better to here a good length interview with positive news!
I love one quote from a member of skating forum," Now everyone is yelling about ladies competition became junior, no big jumps etc. But when Miki and Mao were doing quads and 3a specialists were running with protractor around the ice, searching for UR. Now what we got, easy jumps +GOE is better then more difficult jump but less GOE. And only one season back they changed base values.
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:07 pm

That is ridiculous. If you look really closely at Yulia's jumps, half of them are prerotated - and they need to note things like that otherwise it isn't fair at all! I am so mad right now...
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:46 pm

Mao2012 wrote:

This is correct, but if you watch the slow motion in this video at 5:36 you can really see her blade touching the ice 1/4 revolution earlier, I think it actually was <, when the loop was good...

Yes, I watched that too. Her blade touched the ice about 1/4 revolution earlier, but only the front part of the blade, not the whole blade. Had it been a solo jump, when the whole blade touched the ice, it would have been fully rotated (just like the 3F she did in NHK EX, you can watched the slow motion too). It is because that she began to pre-rotate on the 2lo the moment her blade (front part) touched the ice and that makes it look like short of rotation.
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:48 pm

AmazingGraceMao wrote:
Mao2012 wrote:

This is correct, but if you watch the slow motion in this video at 5:36 you can really see her blade touching the ice 1/4 revolution earlier, I think it actually was <, when the loop was good...

Yes, I watched that too. Her blade touched the ice about 1/4 revolution earlier, but only the front part of the blade, not the whole blade. Had it been a solo jump, when the whole blade touched the ice, it would have been fully rotated (just like the 3F she did in NHK EX, you can watched the slow motion too). It is because that she began to pre-rotate on the 2lo the moment her blade (front part) touched the ice and that makes it look like short of rotation.

ita
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:48 pm

Star85 wrote:
This pisses me off. Why the hell do they have specialists (and I'm sure judges too) who are not completely knowledgeable Frustrated ?! The skaters, the fans, and the whole sport relies on these people, and when they don't know what they're doing, it makes skating that much more subjective than it already is. ISU needs to see to it that the specialists and judges are completely educated, tested, and qualified. Funky judging and subjectivity is one thing that turns people off about the sport. I've read countless comments throughout the years of people threatening not to watch skating anymore because of this. I recently learned the judges are not paid, plus they are selected by the host country for GP events and that country pays for their accommodations/expenses. Now this! Come on ISU, this is starting to look really bad.

Yes ITA! And I've learned recently that unlike the judges the tech callers are being paid for what they do! Faint2
Which raises a question...how and who chooses these specialists in each competition? Anybody know? Question
For competitions like 4CC, Euro Championships and Worlds, I suppose ISU makes the choice. But for GPS competitions in each counrty, do each of the Feds choose and hire/pay them? If someone knows about these things plz tell me.

Another question I have is do the judges score skaters' PCS before or after the tech callers conclude whether all the jumps are fully rotated, URd or DGd? I think this before or after matter would make a big difference in how the judges score PCS. Do rotations of jumps influence the components of PCS in any way or not? I'd really like an answer to this one!

Anyways, I've always kind of thought all this fully-rotated or under-rotated business is a bit meaningless. If a jump is as badly rotated as to DG level, sure they should count a quad as a triple and a triple as a double, but if it's only just a bit under-rotated...so what!? The audience is going to appreciate such jumps anyway as long as they have good quality such as being landed with flow, width and height etc....And some commentators in Jpn have been saying that it's become so hard to comment whether a jump is fully rotated or not over the past several seasons, because however much some jumps seem fully rotated to their eyes, tech callers tend to give them

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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:15 pm

PochinkoPotanko wrote:


Sato:

2.I want her to do large jumps with ongoing speed, but because of her habits from the past she tends to lose speed right before she jumps which makes them small and URd, which is something I am trying to clear and make sure wouldn't happen above all. But we are still in the middle of fixing this. The more speed you gain many miscalculations start rising to the surface, so when you feel too strongly about keeping good speed that causes mental influence and mistakes, which is usually referred to as popping. Even when you think you know the right feeling (to do a speedy jump), sometimes skaters are betrayed by their own selves, so we just need to keep on practicing it over and over a little more.


Mao is in good hands. They are on the right track. I do wish Mao can put more speed into the jumps. That way her jumps would be big and GOE-happy. I just recalled the 3A in 2011 4cc, there was a lot of speed into that jump and it was rewarded +1.29 GOE. God I love to see that again!

Thanks Pochi so much for translating! Thank you!



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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:37 pm


Another question I have is do the judges score skaters' PCS before or after the tech callers conclude whether all the jumps are fully rotated, URd or DGd? I think this before or after matter would make a big difference in how the judges score PCS. Do rotations of jumps influence the components of PCS in any way or not? I'd really like an answer to this one!


Hi, PochinkoPotanko, about this question, I think there may be some partial answer to it from this video clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaTbLK49RTg&feature=g-hist

It's a documentary about the backstage preparation for JO. From about 6:39-7:20, it talks a little about the judging part. And it looks like the tech-judges decide the difficulty of jumps first, then PCS is assigned (But I'm not a native speaker of Japanese, so please correct that if I missed any detail there!). One thing I'm not sure about, however, is that if the judges who score PCS are kept from knowing the decisions of jump levels?
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:30 pm

COHK wrote:

Another question I have is do the judges score skaters' PCS before or after the tech callers conclude whether all the jumps are fully rotated, URd or DGd? I think this before or after matter would make a big difference in how the judges score PCS. Do rotations of jumps influence the components of PCS in any way or not? I'd really like an answer to this one!


Hi, PochinkoPotanko, about this question, I think there may be some partial answer to it from this video clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaTbLK49RTg&feature=g-hist

It's a documentary about the backstage preparation for JO. From about 6:39-7:20, it talks a little about the judging part. And it looks like the tech-judges decide the difficulty of jumps first, then PCS is assigned (But I'm not a native speaker of Japanese, so please correct that if I missed any detail there!). One thing I'm not sure about, however, is that if the judges who score PCS are kept from knowing the decisions of jump levels?

Thank you for the video link COHK!
They certainly did show how the judging is done from around 6:40 in this clip. And yes it seems the tech specialists first notes what kind of a jump or element has been executed along with deciding the levels, and that info goes straight to the judges and they said in the video that they score them between 0~7 (GOE).
So although they didn't mention when they actually score PCS, from this clip it can pretty well be assumed that the judges do that after the performance is over and they've already scored GOEs. The only info I wanted which was not mentioned in this vid was when they do the rotation judgings and the edge calls. I wonder if they are included when the tech specialists check what types of jumps has been done and give levels to other elements. If they're doing that and catching sight of URs and wrong edges at the same time...wow, they must have extremely outstanding kinetic eyesight! Of course I'm just being sarcastic, cause if so, that explains all those misjudged URs and edge calls we seem to have pretty often. I simply can't imagine anyone capable of being so definitely sure about a slightly URd jump or whether a Lz or F had wrong edge in an instant. But anyway, even though there was a button on their touch panels which said 'wrong edge', the narrator in this video didn't say anything about it nor UR judgings so I still can't figure out at which point they make final decisions on them... confused

I guess I may have to wait until I get another chance to go see a competition live at some stadium and try to pay more attention to the judges at least after the performances are done rather than just watching the skaters at K&C to figure out how they seem to be doing what in which order...nah, I won't be able to tell the difference anyway.

I'd really wish though that they'd introduce all the judges and the tech specialists after a competition is over to the audience, not before it begins like they actually do. Then we could choose whether to give them an applause or boo at them according to how we felt about the scorings without involving the skaters. Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:47 am

..how and who chooses these specialists in each competition? Anybody know?
For competitions like 4CC, Euro Championships and Worlds, I suppose ISU makes the choice. But for GPS competitions in each country, do each of the Feds choose and hire/pay them? If someone knows about these things plz tell me.

Another question I have is do the judges score skaters' PCS before or after the tech callers conclude whether all the jumps are fully rotated, URd or DGd? I think this before or after matter would make a big difference in how the judges score PCS. Do rotations of jumps influence the components of PCS in any way or not? I'd really like an answer to this one!.

well, when I first saw this question I typed up my answer then when I tried to add something I accidentally erased everything, oh well.

to answer your first question:

The ISU Vice-President will confirm and publish the ISU list of Technical Specialists based on recommendations of the
Technical Committees.
For ISU Events, i.e. ISU Championships, ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating Events and Final (Senior and Junior) as
well as the Olympic Winter Games and the Qualifying Competition for the Olympic Winter Games, the Technical
Specialists will be appointed by the ISU President as per Article 16, paragraph 2. f) of the ISU Constitution (which will
take into account written recommendations from the Vice-President Figure Skating prepared in consultation with the
Sports Directorate and the respective Technical Committee) from the official ISU list.
For all other International Competitions, the Technical Specialists will be appointed by the organizing Member from
the official ISU list. key name to remember:
President......................................Ottavio Cinquanta(wields enormous power.....Italy
Vise President Figure Skating.......David Dore(one of the "IJS" "CoP" archtects.Ca nada
ISU Sports Directorate................Peter Krick (his wife Sissy Krick is a Tech Controller also)
and others...you can find out by googling it?

to answer your 2nd question(I don't have all the answers but this is how I remember it.
Tech. Panel consists of Tech. Specialist(possess highest knowledge) and calls each element as he/she sees it thus the nick name "the Caller" in real-time. if he suspect any ur &dg or edge call(flutz or lip) he will holler "replay" to the Video Operator.
TS(tech specialist) Assistant TS and TC(tech controller) will review using slow motion playback...*need 2/3 rd majority to decide each infraction.
TS will identifies each element(jumps, spins, spiral,steps) and levels as he/she sees it
that is why he/she must be a former "high level" skater.
identifies illegal element(back flip?), a fall(with in the element e.g.. jump or after(yuzuru 2012 Worlds when he fell after he finished his footwork sequence) and others....

now, the Judges work completely separate from the Tech Panel.
each judge determine "How Well" each element is executed "Grades of Execution" for example Mao's new 2axel..creative entry..nice air position,,clean landing with nice flowing edge..both arms held high while landing(shows good control)...Mao received +2 GoE (well done)
Akiko's major mistake in the SP...when she singled her 3lutz attempt....this is where some/many don't quite understand? if she only doubled this jump 2lutz...the penalty would not be so severe, why? it is a "Required Elements". if this error happened in the LP, it would be evaluated as a single Lutz as Mao singled her 3salchow.
Akiko not only lost her BV(base value) of a 3Lutz(6.0) to a 1Lz(0.6) And minus 3 GoE deductions..Mandatory Deductions(Double Penalties)...that is why at the 2012 Worlds Men's forum discussion I made a statement regarding how P Chan was able to win the 2010 Skate Canada ,somehow(I still don't quite understand it) with botching a 3 Required Elements? well, it is only fair Mao won with 3 quality triple jumps, all level4 spins, a beautiful choreo spiral and the Best step sequence?(my 2 cents) and much improved "skating skills".

I am sorry I got distracted again, as I said earlier, each judge evaluate each element "how well" it is done and reward + GoE for an element well done or deduct for an element poorly executed(Mao received - 0.21 GoE (2Lz) and -0.1 GoE(1S)
Akiko received 3 deductions...2 edge calls "e" on both her 3LZ(3Lz/2t/2lo) - 0.1 GoE,3Lz -0.6 GoE and under rotation of 3Lo(loss of BV) - 1.1 GoE

I would not have noticed these errors until I start examining each element more thoroughly, in another words,all those "people" screaming Akiko had 7 clean triple jumps, they are NOT telling the "Truth". of 7 jumping passes Akiko received two edge calls and one under-rotations thus she did not receive any positive grades of execution(GoE) for these errors..
she only had 4 clean jumping passes compared to Mao's 3 clean triples(3F, 2A/3T and 3Lo/2Lo/2Lo in the 2nd half(10% bonus) all 3 jumps were high quality,IMO
3F preceded by a spread eagle and a counter, 2A/3T(a beautifully executed +1.2 GoE
and 3Lo/2Lo/2Lo in the 2nd half.
to me Mao is a much better spinner than Akiko(I am sorry for Akiko fans) why? Mao's beautiful lines, beautiful positions(just check Akiko's Camel positions) Mao's beautiful Beillmann, Mao's flexibility/extensions. although Mao only receive a little more than 1 point for all level4 spins over Akiko.
Akiko received higher GoE for her choreo spiral (1.7 to 1.4)
but Mao has a Best Step Sequence this season in SP and LP.
***this is my opinion, much more speed, ease of flow and accelerations,coverage of ice,
improved edge quality, use of deep edges, cleaner entry/exit edges(counters & rockers)
how she maintains her speed throughout(does not slow down like many others)
Mao received level4 (3.9 BV) + 1.9 GoE to Akiko level3(3.3 BV) + 1 GoE
so if you really break it down, Akiko out scored Mao in the TES(tech element scores) by out jumping Mao 6 triples to 3 but Akiko also received 2 "e" edge calls also.

now the PCS(program component scores)
as I said earlier Akiko "should" have won the P/E(performance/execution) although the ISU guidelines are NOT what many of us think but I disagree with their guideline.
Akiko performed well with a lot of emotions/passions and executed all of elements without any major errors...this Should count for something.IMO

I gave Mao clear edge in SS(skating skills), I have read Akiko skates just as fast as Mao? perhaps,the ISU criteria for SS is not how fast but "overall skating quality", "multi-directional skating", "speed and power"...cleanness and sureness of edges, glide and flow depth and quality of edges and ice coverage, one foot skating.
I gave Akiko "power" portion in this category but "overall skating" qualities, including effortless glide/acceleration(unless you have seen Mao in person (I have seen her in actual competition and 2 practice sessions) you don't realize how fast she is moving. why? Mao is so light on the ice, as someone posted in this thread(I chuckled with that descriptions) she is so quiet with her blades,no sound but Mao uses her soft and flexible knees(rhythmic knee actions) to generate her speed which is effortless.
I will also give Mao "transitions" for Mao had many more difficult footwork transitions, such as counters, rockers,brackets,loops,choctaws,mohahks,toe steps, double threes,
and best twizzles and big edge in her 1 foot skating. also Mao had many more field moves, especially a beautiful spread eagle(inside and out side edge) some split jumps and falling leaf during the step-seq? both Mao and Akiko used their whole body, arms,head, torso to interpret the music(body move transitions).
Choreography...***harmonious composition of the program
...................... ***creativity and originality
.......................***conformity of elements,steps and movements to the music
.......................***originality,difficulty and variety of program pattern
......................***distribution of highlights
......................***utilization of space and ice surface

Interpretation/timing
.............................*easy movement and sureness in time to music
.............................*finesse and nuances of the musical phrases
..............................*expression of the music's style and character
..............................*feeling/imagination of the structural design of the skater's music

I don't have enough knowledge to evaluate CH and IN so I will leave this up to you.
oh, did you know that one of the criteria for the P/E is "carriage"...Mao has much smoother "carriage" than Akiko.IMO

oh, your question regard to under rotation "<". please someone corrects me if the rules changed but the sign "<" will NOT be shown to the Judges. they will evaluate the "GoE" as they see it(without slow motion)
to answer your other question? wrong edge(Flutz or Lip)...this will be informed to the Judges but it will depend on the severity of infractions, such as is it a clear "flutz" with no attempt to hold the out-side edge or a skater changed to inside edge as she/he is taking off? additionaly, judges can add or subtract depend on the quality of jumps...nice entry?...nice air position, niice landing with clean edge or a skater lands shaky, step-out,hand down, turn-out..etc judges will reduce their GoE accordingly 0 to -2 GoE is ISU guideine(Akiko received mostly 0 to -1 GoE for her "e" error.

I hope I answered all or most of your questions and I am sorry agaian for this log post.

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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:29 am

Ottavio Cinquanta prior to becoming ISU President was ISU Vice President and before the Chair of its Technical Committee for Short Track speed skating... How is it possible that a person with this kind of background chooses the Figure skating Technical Specialists for the ISU major competitions? It's absurde, theer should be separate federations for speed skating and figure skating, in my opnion...
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:40 am

fgr8sktrfn wrote:
..how and who chooses these specialists in each competition? Anybody know?
For competitions like 4CC, Euro Championships and Worlds, I suppose ISU makes the choice. But for GPS competitions in each country, do each of the Feds choose and hire/pay them? If someone knows about these things plz tell me.

Another question I have is do the judges score skaters' PCS before or after the tech callers conclude whether all the jumps are fully rotated, URd or DGd? I think this before or after matter would make a big difference in how the judges score PCS. Do rotations of jumps influence the components of PCS in any way or not? I'd really like an answer to this one!.

well, when I first saw this question I typed up my answer then when I tried to add something I accidentally erased everything, oh well.

to answer your first question:

The ISU Vice-President will confirm and publish the ISU list of Technical Specialists based on recommendations of the
Technical Committees.
For ISU Events, i.e. ISU Championships, ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating Events and Final (Senior and Junior) as
well as the Olympic Winter Games and the Qualifying Competition for the Olympic Winter Games, the Technical
Specialists will be appointed by the ISU President as per Article 16, paragraph 2. f) of the ISU Constitution (which will
take into account written recommendations from the Vice-President Figure Skating prepared in consultation with the
Sports Directorate and the respective Technical Committee) from the official ISU list.
For all other International Competitions, the Technical Specialists will be appointed by the organizing Member from
the official ISU list. key name to remember:
President......................................Ottavio Cinquanta(wields enormous power.....Italy
Vise President Figure Skating.......David Dore(one of the "IJS" "CoP" archtects.Ca nada
ISU Sports Directorate................Peter Krick (his wife Sissy Krick is a Tech Controller also)
and others...you can find out by googling it?

to answer your 2nd question(I don't have all the answers but this is how I remember it.
Tech. Panel consists of Tech. Specialist(possess highest knowledge) and calls each element as he/she sees it thus the nick name "the Caller" in real-time. if he suspect any ur &dg or edge call(flutz or lip) he will holler "replay" to the Video Operator.
TS(tech specialist) Assistant TS and TC(tech controller) will review using slow motion playback...*need 2/3 rd majority to decide each infraction.
TS will identifies each element(jumps, spins, spiral,steps) and levels as he/she sees it
that is why he/she must be a former "high level" skater.
identifies illegal element(back flip?), a fall(with in the element e.g.. jump or after(yuzuru 2012 Worlds when he fell after he finished his footwork sequence) and others....

now, the Judges work completely separate from the Tech Panel.
each judge determine "How Well" each element is executed "Grades of Execution" for example Mao's new 2axel..creative entry..nice air position,,clean landing with nice flowing edge..both arms held high while landing(shows good control)...Mao received +2 GoE (well done)
Akiko's major mistake in the SP...when she singled her 3lutz attempt....this is where some/many don't quite understand? if she only doubled this jump 2lutz...the penalty would not be so severe, why? it is a "Required Elements". if this error happened in the LP, it would be evaluated as a single Lutz as Mao singled her 3salchow.
Akiko not only lost her BV(base value) of a 3Lutz(6.0) to a 1Lz(0.6) And minus 3 GoE deductions..Mandatory Deductions(Double Penalties)...that is why at the 2012 Worlds Men's forum discussion I made a statement regarding how P Chan was able to win the 2010 Skate Canada ,somehow(I still don't quite understand it) with botching a 3 Required Elements? well, it is only fair Mao won with 3 quality triple jumps, all level4 spins, a beautiful choreo spiral and the Best step sequence?(my 2 cents) and much improved "skating skills".

I am sorry I got distracted again, as I said earlier, each judge evaluate each element "how well" it is done and reward + GoE for an element well done or deduct for an element poorly executed(Mao received - 0.21 GoE (2Lz) and -0.1 GoE(1S)
Akiko received 3 deductions...2 edge calls "e" on both her 3LZ(3Lz/2t/2lo) - 0.1 GoE,3Lz -0.6 GoE and under rotation of 3Lo(loss of BV) - 1.1 GoE

I would not have noticed these errors until I start examining each element more thoroughly, in another words,all those "people" screaming Akiko had 7 clean triple jumps, they are NOT telling the "Truth". of 7 jumping passes Akiko received two edge calls and one under-rotations thus she did not receive any positive grades of execution(GoE) for these errors..
she only had 4 clean jumping passes compared to Mao's 3 clean triples(3F, 2A/3T and 3Lo/2Lo/2Lo in the 2nd half(10% bonus) all 3 jumps were high quality,IMO
3F preceded by a spread eagle and a counter, 2A/3T(a beautifully executed +1.2 GoE
and 3Lo/2Lo/2Lo in the 2nd half.
to me Mao is a much better spinner than Akiko(I am sorry for Akiko fans) why? Mao's beautiful lines, beautiful positions(just check Akiko's Camel positions) Mao's beautiful Beillmann, Mao's flexibility/extensions. although Mao only receive a little more than 1 point for all level4 spins over Akiko.
Akiko received higher GoE for her choreo spiral (1.7 to 1.4)
but Mao has a Best Step Sequence this season in SP and LP.
***this is my opinion, much more speed, ease of flow and accelerations,coverage of ice,
improved edge quality, use of deep edges, cleaner entry/exit edges(counters & rockers)
how she maintains her speed throughout(does not slow down like many others)
Mao received level4 (3.9 BV) + 1.9 GoE to Akiko level3(3.3 BV) + 1 GoE
so if you really break it down, Akiko out scored Mao in the TES(tech element scores) by out jumping Mao 6 triples to 3 but Akiko also received 2 "e" edge calls also.

now the PCS(program component scores)
as I said earlier Akiko "should" have won the P/E(performance/execution) although the ISU guidelines are NOT what many of us think but I disagree with their guideline.
Akiko performed well with a lot of emotions/passions and executed all of elements without any major errors...this Should count for something.IMO

I gave Mao clear edge in SS(skating skills), I have read Akiko skates just as fast as Mao? perhaps,the ISU criteria for SS is not how fast but "overall skating quality", "multi-directional skating", "speed and power"...cleanness and sureness of edges, glide and flow depth and quality of edges and ice coverage, one foot skating.
I gave Akiko "power" portion in this category but "overall skating" qualities, including effortless glide/acceleration(unless you have seen Mao in person (I have seen her in actual competition and 2 practice sessions) you don't realize how fast she is moving. why? Mao is so light on the ice, as someone posted in this thread(I chuckled with that descriptions) she is so quiet with her blades,no sound but Mao uses her soft and flexible knees(rhythmic knee actions) to generate her speed which is effortless.
I will also give Mao "transitions" for Mao had many more difficult footwork transitions, such as counters, rockers,brackets,loops,choctaws,mohahks,toe steps, double threes,
and best twizzles and big edge in her 1 foot skating. also Mao had many more field moves, especially a beautiful spread eagle(inside and out side edge) some split jumps and falling leaf during the step-seq? both Mao and Akiko used their whole body, arms,head, torso to interpret the music(body move transitions).
Choreography...***harmonious composition of the program
...................... ***creativity and originality
.......................***conformity of elements,steps and movements to the music
.......................***originality,difficulty and variety of program pattern
......................***distribution of highlights
......................***utilization of space and ice surface

Interpretation/timing
.............................*easy movement and sureness in time to music
.............................*finesse and nuances of the musical phrases
..............................*expression of the music's style and character
..............................*feeling/imagination of the structural design of the skater's music

I don't have enough knowledge to evaluate CH and IN so I will leave this up to you.
oh, did you know that one of the criteria for the P/E is "carriage"...Mao has much smoother "carriage" than Akiko.IMO

oh, your question regard to under rotation "<". please someone corrects me if the rules changed but the sign "<" will NOT be shown to the Judges. they will evaluate the "GoE" as they see it(without slow motion)
to answer your other question? wrong edge(Flutz or Lip)...this will be informed to the Judges but it will depend on the severity of infractions, such as is it a clear "flutz" with no attempt to hold the out-side edge or a skater changed to inside edge as she/he is taking off? additionaly, judges can add or subtract depend on the quality of jumps...nice entry?...nice air position, niice landing with clean edge or a skater lands shaky, step-out,hand down, turn-out..etc judges will reduce their GoE accordingly 0 to -2 GoE is ISU guideine(Akiko received mostly 0 to -1 GoE for her "e" error.

I hope I answered all or most of your questions and I am sorry agaian for this log post.


thanks soo much for this detailed analysis, the techcical part was really interesting, it made many things much more clear!

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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:28 am

fgr8sktrfn, your attention to detail in your posts is much appreciated! Thank you so much for explaining the technical aspects in FS. Looking forward to more of your commentaries and mini 'lectures' because for me it helps to be informed! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:30 am

ballerinamao wrote:
zarinaballerina wrote:
Pochinko, thanks so much for those interviews!!! It's good to know where her mindset about 3A is, though personally I'd prefer if she'd put 3-3 in her programs asap instead of 3A, but at least she's not stubbornly competing with 3A this season.

well i am happy either way, but i think i would prefer her to bring back the 3A, since she is the only woman capable of bringing it back to competition after all, and her 3A is just such a beautiful jump, and that beside her 2A-3T gives almost the same amount of points as a 3-3 does already!

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see her 3A back (the one she'd done at 2011 4CC was stunning Swoon ), but IMO, 3A is such a "pressure" jump for her, I'd prefer to see her go for 3-3 at least in the SP.

Mao2012 wrote:
Ottavio Cinquanta prior to becoming ISU President was ISU Vice President and before the Chair of its Technical Committee for Short Track speed skating... How is it possible that a person with this kind of background chooses the Figure skating Technical Specialists for the ISU major competitions? Very Mad It's absurde, theer should be separate federations for speed skating and figure skating, in my opnion...

I agree and if you think this is bad, just wait for 2013 worlds, where I'm willing to bet that the women's tech specialist is going to be Amano yet again. Mad pale

@fgr8sktrfn, thanks so much for such a detailed explanation. Thank you!
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:09 pm

NHK FS fluff, you see mao warming up off ice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTDXsiSCsqU

does anyone know who the lady at 6:45 who hugged mao was? she looked like the lady that was with her during 2008 worlds
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:40 pm

she was the lady, who was with Mao during 2008 worlds
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:50 pm

ballerinamao wrote:
she was the lady, who was with Mao during 2008 worlds

What's her name?
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:55 pm

l-spiralmao wrote:
ballerinamao wrote:
she was the lady, who was with Mao during 2008 worlds

What's her name?

I don't remember her name Neutral
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:22 am

fgr8sktrfn wrote:
..how and who chooses these specialists in each competition? Anybody know?
For competitions like 4CC, Euro Championships and Worlds, I suppose ISU makes the choice. But for GPS competitions in each country, do each of the Feds choose and hire/pay them? If someone knows about these things plz tell me.

Another question I have is do the judges score skaters' PCS before or after the tech callers conclude whether all the jumps are fully rotated, URd or DGd? I think this before or after matter would make a big difference in how the judges score PCS. Do rotations of jumps influence the components of PCS in any way or not? I'd really like an answer to this one!.

well, when I first saw this question I typed up my answer then when I tried to add something I accidentally erased everything, oh well.

to answer your first question:

The ISU Vice-President will confirm and publish the ISU list of Technical Specialists based on recommendations of the
Technical Committees.
For ISU Events, i.e. ISU Championships, ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating Events and Final (Senior and Junior) as
well as the Olympic Winter Games and the Qualifying Competition for the Olympic Winter Games, the Technical
Specialists will be appointed by the ISU President as per Article 16, paragraph 2. f) of the ISU Constitution (which will
take into account written recommendations from the Vice-President Figure Skating prepared in consultation with the
Sports Directorate and the respective Technical Committee) from the official ISU list.
For all other International Competitions, the Technical Specialists will be appointed by the organizing Member from
the official ISU list. key name to remember:
President......................................Ottavio Cinquanta(wields enormous power.....Italy
Vise President Figure Skating.......David Dore(one of the "IJS" "CoP" archtects.Ca nada
ISU Sports Directorate................Peter Krick (his wife Sissy Krick is a Tech Controller also)
and others...you can find out by googling it?

to answer your 2nd question(I don't have all the answers but this is how I remember it.
Tech. Panel consists of Tech. Specialist(possess highest knowledge) and calls each element as he/she sees it thus the nick name "the Caller" in real-time. if he suspect any ur &dg or edge call(flutz or lip) he will holler "replay" to the Video Operator.
TS(tech specialist) Assistant TS and TC(tech controller) will review using slow motion playback...*need 2/3 rd majority to decide each infraction.
TS will identifies each element(jumps, spins, spiral,steps) and levels as he/she sees it
that is why he/she must be a former "high level" skater.
identifies illegal element(back flip?), a fall(with in the element e.g.. jump or after(yuzuru 2012 Worlds when he fell after he finished his footwork sequence) and others....

now, the Judges work completely separate from the Tech Panel.
each judge determine "How Well" each element is executed "Grades of Execution" for example Mao's new 2axel..creative entry..nice air position,,clean landing with nice flowing edge..both arms held high while landing(shows good control)...Mao received +2 GoE (well done)
Akiko's major mistake in the SP...when she singled her 3lutz attempt....this is where some/many don't quite understand? if she only doubled this jump 2lutz...the penalty would not be so severe, why? it is a "Required Elements". if this error happened in the LP, it would be evaluated as a single Lutz as Mao singled her 3salchow.
Akiko not only lost her BV(base value) of a 3Lutz(6.0) to a 1Lz(0.6) And minus 3 GoE deductions..Mandatory Deductions(Double Penalties)...that is why at the 2012 Worlds Men's forum discussion I made a statement regarding how P Chan was able to win the 2010 Skate Canada ,somehow(I still don't quite understand it) with botching a 3 Required Elements? well, it is only fair Mao won with 3 quality triple jumps, all level4 spins, a beautiful choreo spiral and the Best step sequence?(my 2 cents) and much improved "skating skills".

I am sorry I got distracted again, as I said earlier, each judge evaluate each element "how well" it is done and reward + GoE for an element well done or deduct for an element poorly executed(Mao received - 0.21 GoE (2Lz) and -0.1 GoE(1S)
Akiko received 3 deductions...2 edge calls "e" on both her 3LZ(3Lz/2t/2lo) - 0.1 GoE,3Lz -0.6 GoE and under rotation of 3Lo(loss of BV) - 1.1 GoE

I would not have noticed these errors until I start examining each element more thoroughly, in another words,all those "people" screaming Akiko had 7 clean triple jumps, they are NOT telling the "Truth". of 7 jumping passes Akiko received two edge calls and one under-rotations thus she did not receive any positive grades of execution(GoE) for these errors..
she only had 4 clean jumping passes compared to Mao's 3 clean triples(3F, 2A/3T and 3Lo/2Lo/2Lo in the 2nd half(10% bonus) all 3 jumps were high quality,IMO
3F preceded by a spread eagle and a counter, 2A/3T(a beautifully executed +1.2 GoE
and 3Lo/2Lo/2Lo in the 2nd half.
to me Mao is a much better spinner than Akiko(I am sorry for Akiko fans) why? Mao's beautiful lines, beautiful positions(just check Akiko's Camel positions) Mao's beautiful Beillmann, Mao's flexibility/extensions. although Mao only receive a little more than 1 point for all level4 spins over Akiko.
Akiko received higher GoE for her choreo spiral (1.7 to 1.4)
but Mao has a Best Step Sequence this season in SP and LP.
***this is my opinion, much more speed, ease of flow and accelerations,coverage of ice,
improved edge quality, use of deep edges, cleaner entry/exit edges(counters & rockers)
how she maintains her speed throughout(does not slow down like many others)
Mao received level4 (3.9 BV) + 1.9 GoE to Akiko level3(3.3 BV) + 1 GoE
so if you really break it down, Akiko out scored Mao in the TES(tech element scores) by out jumping Mao 6 triples to 3 but Akiko also received 2 "e" edge calls also.

now the PCS(program component scores)
as I said earlier Akiko "should" have won the P/E(performance/execution) although the ISU guidelines are NOT what many of us think but I disagree with their guideline.
Akiko performed well with a lot of emotions/passions and executed all of elements without any major errors...this Should count for something.IMO

I gave Mao clear edge in SS(skating skills), I have read Akiko skates just as fast as Mao? perhaps,the ISU criteria for SS is not how fast but "overall skating quality", "multi-directional skating", "speed and power"...cleanness and sureness of edges, glide and flow depth and quality of edges and ice coverage, one foot skating.
I gave Akiko "power" portion in this category but "overall skating" qualities, including effortless glide/acceleration(unless you have seen Mao in person (I have seen her in actual competition and 2 practice sessions) you don't realize how fast she is moving. why? Mao is so light on the ice, as someone posted in this thread(I chuckled with that descriptions) she is so quiet with her blades,no sound but Mao uses her soft and flexible knees(rhythmic knee actions) to generate her speed which is effortless.
I will also give Mao "transitions" for Mao had many more difficult footwork transitions, such as counters, rockers,brackets,loops,choctaws,mohahks,toe steps, double threes,
and best twizzles and big edge in her 1 foot skating. also Mao had many more field moves, especially a beautiful spread eagle(inside and out side edge) some split jumps and falling leaf during the step-seq? both Mao and Akiko used their whole body, arms,head, torso to interpret the music(body move transitions).
Choreography...***harmonious composition of the program
...................... ***creativity and originality
.......................***conformity of elements,steps and movements to the music
.......................***originality,difficulty and variety of program pattern
......................***distribution of highlights
......................***utilization of space and ice surface

Interpretation/timing
.............................*easy movement and sureness in time to music
.............................*finesse and nuances of the musical phrases
..............................*expression of the music's style and character
..............................*feeling/imagination of the structural design of the skater's music

I don't have enough knowledge to evaluate CH and IN so I will leave this up to you.
oh, did you know that one of the criteria for the P/E is "carriage"...Mao has much smoother "carriage" than Akiko.IMO

oh, your question regard to under rotation "<". please someone corrects me if the rules changed but the sign "<" will NOT be shown to the Judges. they will evaluate the "GoE" as they see it(without slow motion)
to answer your other question? wrong edge(Flutz or Lip)...this will be informed to the Judges but it will depend on the severity of infractions, such as is it a clear "flutz" with no attempt to hold the out-side edge or a skater changed to inside edge as she/he is taking off? additionaly, judges can add or subtract depend on the quality of jumps...nice entry?...nice air position, niice landing with clean edge or a skater lands shaky, step-out,hand down, turn-out..etc judges will reduce their GoE accordingly 0 to -2 GoE is ISU guideine(Akiko received mostly 0 to -1 GoE for her "e" error.

I hope I answered all or most of your questions and I am sorry agaian for this log post.


Thank you for your detailed explanations on how the judgings goes. Thank you!

I guess the only question of mine which is still unanswered is at what point the judges score PCS. But from what you've said and from the vid clip COHK posted, it seems hardly possible for the judges to score GOEs and PCS at the same time, and besides it would be surely be unfair for them to score each element overall in PCS unless they've seen the whole performance, I think it's safe to assume they score PCS after the performance is over. But are they doing that after or before...

Quote :
wrong edge(Flutz or Lip)...this will be informed to the Judges but it will depend on the severity of infractions, such as is it a clear "flutz" with no attempt to hold the out-side edge or a skater changed to inside edge as she/he is taking off? additionaly, judges can add or subtract depend on the quality of jumps...nice entry?...nice air position, niice landing with clean edge or a skater lands shaky, step-out,hand down, turn-out..etc judges will reduce their GoE accordingly 0 to -2 GoE is ISU guideine

...remains unsolved I suppose. And the other thing which I really want to know is...

Quote :
the sign "<" will NOT be shown to the Judges. they will evaluate the "GoE" as they see it(without slow motion)

...if so, will the judges ever be told of URs and DGs before they score PCS or not. I simply was curious whether URs, DGs and egdge calls would (or should) influence judges when they score PCS; PE in particlar. But never mind. I'll just go and read IUS guidlines and see if there are any answers there myself. If there aren't, I guess I'll just never know. Rolling Eyes

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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:00 am

thanks "ballerinamao","klarification" and "zarinabellerina" for your kind words.
I am very happy to contribute in this forum.

"pochinko" up on further review, I dug up some more new and up-dated informations.
as I stated in my earlier post the ISU are constantly changing rules/regulations every seasons so sometimes I may not be able to provide the latest information.
please feel free to correct me when I do.

*the following language would be recommended for new under-rotation/downgrading rules:
jumps may, in execution, be lacking intended rotation on the landing
and/or take-off. The elements with lacking rotation will be defined as “Under-rotated” or
“Downgraded” and treated as follows:
• A Jump with accepted rotation has “missing rotation of ¼ revolution or less”.
• This element will receive full Base Value with GOE at the discretion of every Judge.
• A Jump will be considered as “Under-rotated” if it has “missing rotation of more
than ¼, but less than ½ revolutions”.
• An under-rotated jump will be indicated by the Technical Panel to the Judges
and in the protocols with a “<” symbol after the element code.
• A jump identified as under-rotated will receive a reduced base value -
70% of the base value of the intended jump rounded to one decimal place. (i.e., if the base
value of a jump is 6.0, then the value of the under-rotated jump is 4.2).
• The GOE values applied to the under-rotated jump or throw will be the same as for
the intended jump.
• A Jump will be considered as “Downgraded” if it has “missing rotation of ½
revolutions or more”.
• A downgraded jump will be indicated by the Technical Panel to the Judgesand in the protocols with a “<<” symbol after the element code.
• A jump identified as downgraded will be evaluated using the scale of
values (SOV chart) for the element of one rotation less (i.e., a downgraded triple will be
evaluated with the scale of values for the corresponding double).
• Both under-rotated and downgraded jumps will count as the intended jump in the
application of Well Balanced Program regulations.

in regards to "PCS" scoring
Program Components are evaluated by the Judges "AFTER" completion of a program on a scale from 0.25 to 10 with increments of 0.25.
Points giving by the Judges correspond to the following degrees of the Component 1 very poor, 2 poor , 3 weak, 4 fair, 5 average, 6 above average, 7 good, 8 very good, 9superior, 10 outstanding.
I hope this additional information will clear some of your un-answered questions.
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:12 am

Quote :
[quote="fgr8sktrfn"
in regards to "PCS" scoring
Program Components are evaluated by the Judges "AFTER" completion of a program on a scale from 0.25 to 10 with increments of 0.25.
Points giving by the Judges correspond to the following degrees of the Component 1 very poor, 2 poor , 3 weak, 4 fair, 5 average, 6 above average, 7 good, 8 very good, 9superior, 10 outstanding.
I hope this additional information will clear some of your un-answered questions.
[/quote]

thanks so much for going through the trouble of researching this issue, i'm really relieved and glad to hear that they do it after the completion of the program!
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:25 am

Thank you again fgr8sktrfn for taking your time to explain the rules for me. I don't find anything which needs to be corrected in what you've wrote; though I haven't checked yet I'm pretty sure that all you noted is as so in the ISU guidlines too, cause even from my limited knowledge I've been aware of most of it myself. But thanks again for sparing me the time to go to ISU site and confirm these things myself. It's good to know we have somebody we can count on when we have questions concerning the rules! Smile

Plus it was great to know that the judges definitely score PCS after a program is finished...well, I can't imagine how else they can score them, but anyways I feel better now that at least they're scoring PCS at the right time, if not always scoring them in the right ways. Rolling Eyes

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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:29 am

ballerinamao wrote:
l-spiralmao wrote:
ballerinamao wrote:
she was the lady, who was with Mao during 2008 worlds

What's her name?

I don't remember her name Neutral

Her name is Reiko Ogawa.
She belonged to JSF when we saw her at the Worlds 2008.
She was with Mao at Skatet Canada 2007 as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCZ09ZZdS2s

Wikipedia says that she is a former figure skater and won
the Nationals in 1980.

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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:05 am

Thank you so much fgr8sktrfn for taking time to check up and write about the rules. cheers
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PostSubject: Re: NHK Trophy 2012   Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:18 pm

linglang wrote:
Thank you so much fgr8sktrfn for taking time to check up and write about the rules. cheers

you are welcom "linglang" and "pochinko".
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