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 Skate America 2012!

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zarinaballerina
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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:09 pm

ElleluvsL wrote:
zarinaballerina wrote:
I'm predicting an overscored Alena, unless judges finally saw reason and will give her the score she deserves, which I doubt to be honest. But luckily there's also Adelina the russian prodigy

Alena finished the short program in ninth place. ouch. I did feel bad seeing her break down in tears.

Wow, what happened?! When i asked for a fair judging (meaning Alena not scoring very well) I wasn't hoping for a bad skate. Well, that's figure skating, ice is slippery.

chapis wrote:
but, how much is important the coach, mainly in grown skaters?, I don´t imagine what can to know or to do different a coach to another. May be in the way to motivate, Morozov and Orser are good in that item, I think.

IMO, a coach is important, because he/she sees all the little mistakes/details, that skaters can't. Coaches are also different in the way they coach, some manage their skaters very well, others make the overtrain. Yes, Brian imo, is a very good motivator, and morozov, as much as i hate him, is also very good at instilling confidence in his skaters, mostly though with crappy programs which contain no choreography, unless you count posing. Twisted Evil

MaoChan756 wrote:
I wonder why Mao decided to leave Raphael? Her jumps were actually strongest around then...

I agree, and Rafael managed to save her 3 toe. I think the official explanation was the difficulty in comunication- languagge barrier. I also read somewhere, that her mom was very lonely in lake arrowhead, but I don't know if that's true. maybe her mom's health played a part in it, and they wanted to go back to Japan, even when Mao was coached by TAT she spend most of her time training on her own in Japan.
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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:10 pm

PochinkoPotanko wrote:
But it's taking too much time; much more than I expected. I'm losing faith in Sato.

To be honest, I don't think most of the delay was Sato's fault...

Mao was steadily improving until 4CC 2011, then the Worlds got delayed, Mao's mum condition got worse and Mao lost too much weight and reportedly suffered from some stomach problems (which could be caused by the stress because of her mum's condition and the earthquake).
She seemed strong again at NHK 2011 and I remember thinking her jumps looked really good in practices at NHK, CoR and GPF.
Although her LP at CoR wasn't as good as NHK (and I can't help thinking of that time Mao said that she disliked competing outside of Japan then because she was frightened her mum might pass away before she got back home), but she still made the GPF.
Sadly, she had to withdraw and missed some practice time, only getting back on ice one week before Nats - and she did great there, considering her very short preparation time and another growth spurt she was reportedly adjusting to.
Again, her condition steadily improved until Worlds - and she looked great in the early practice, with 3-3 and 2A-3T. But then her condition went rapidly downhill, and we don't really know what happened.

Most of these things would happen regardless of what coach Mao was with. If there were any lessons to take from those 2 seasons it would be to take it easy on 3As for now and find a specialist who would help Mao with her physical conditioning - and it seems like Mao's team arrived to the same conclusion. Smile

polosatik wrote:
Inskate ,I'm positive about Mao improvement my only question, if she has enough time for it. To me even flutz is not such a big problem, the biggest is UR jumps, if she will improve it then I think her confidence and reputation will go up. But the huge improvement is pretty clean skate such early in the season, which is quite unusual for Mao.

I think by now URs are more of a confidence problem than a technical/physical one. In the practice clips from late summer and reportedly in the run-though at JO her jumps looked quite good. I especially liked 2A-3T in this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DEE_D2Vjro (~1:21)
Great speed going into 2A, very deep knee landing a'la Yuna or Miki. If she goes into all of her jumps with such confidence and speed, there should be no risk of URs. And I don't think Mao would have included so many steps before her jumps, or added the 'Tano, if she weren't feeling good about them. Smile

Quote :
I wonder why Mao decided to leave Raphael?

A miscommunication that left Mao training alone before 4CC 2008, plus Mao wanted to stay more in Japan while Rafael couldn't leave his students in America (they parted on good terms and spoke of each other well in interviews later). Looking back, I wonder if Mao's mum condition was declining and she could no longer stay with Mao & Mai in USA...

Quote :
Her jumps were actually strongest around then...

Actually, she struggled quite a bit. Her 3As were unsteady at the beginning of the season and so were the 3-3s, she didn't even attempt 3S, her 2A-3T wasn't consistent and according to Raphael she actually learned 3F-3T on her own. Sweatdrop Plus she lost GoE on 2-foots and URs on 2L in combos.
What was better was that somehow Mao managed to peak at Worlds during both seasons - although in the case of Worlds 2008 she was actually training alone for about 3 months. (As I said, I'm happy that Mao's team is taking physical conditioning as one of the pririoties this season, because this is IMHO something she struggled the most in the recent 2 seasons.)
I like Rafael as a person - he seems very protective of his skaters. Still, I remember posters at FSU who watched Mao practice at Lake Arrowhead at were criticizing Rafael for not doing something about Mao's 3Lz/3F even back then (although I personally was too inexperienced to see the hammer toe as a technical flaw). If something was done back then, perhaps Mao could enjoy having clean and consistent jumps now...
(I can't truly blame Rafael, though... Even now I see some of the coaches criticized when their skaters lose jumping consistency either because of reworking their jumps or growth spurt... Back then, when flutzes weren't even truly penalized, the fans would probably rip Rafael's head off if Mao suddenly become inconsistent. pale )


chapis wrote:
but, how much is important the coach, mainly in grown skaters?, I don´t imagine what can to know or to do different a coach to another. May be in the way to motivate, Morozov and Orser are good in that item, I think.

Depends on the skater and situation. Smile
Often coaches can be of great help even to adult skates, especially now when the rules get stricter and even older skaters need to improve their jumps, spins or skating skills.
The coaches keep up with the rules, consult the judges to learn what is CoP-smart and what not, make sure that spins and steps will get the right levels, try to make sure the skaters aren't doing something that would damage their body, help with motivation, promote their skaters... Wink
Plus, their provide a pair of external eyes, so to speak. It's difficult to diagnose your own mistakes - sometimes the skaters are not even aware they are making them. They can be silly things - picking too far too the inside, pulling in the arms to early ot too late before jumping, weird head position during jumps, messing up the patterns while doing steps, getting out of synch in pairs or ice dance... Most of these things would be difficult to spot for the skaters (unless they hired a cameraman, but that would be slow and tedious. Sweatdrop ) I know of some skaters who work as coaches and still have their own coaches to help them prepare for competitions. Smile



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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:16 pm

I guess you're right inskate, if she nail her jumps in practice then it's just mental or not in shape thing. So in general we have to be positive, yes? Lovely 2a-3t, really nice flow out of it. I think we just miss Mao so much so starting speculating Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:04 pm

...
I think Mao needs to skate with more confidence. With more confidence, comes more speed and power. Hanyu skates with confidence. Mao used to skate like that in her younger days when she was at the top. She did make mistakes then but when she skated well, she had a lot of confidence and as a result, more presence on the ice. (Think 2008 Worlds). I think Mao's technique on her jumps have improved (she is no longer bending down so much on her flip/lutzes), but she is hesitant going into them so they appear less impressive than before. Also, her hesitancy on her jumps unfortunately sometimes spread to the rest of her skating, which makes it seem she is cautious and lacking power. Although I do agree that Sato is doing his job with the technical aspects, I also think Mao needs someone with a stronger personality as a coach. I do agree with Pochi that Sato is perhaps too honest and calm in his coaching style. This could be a good approach to have while providing a skater with the basic foundations, but for champion makers, they need to be less mellow. I know Rafael is criticized for not correcting Mao's flutz back then but I think what he did well was to provide her with confidence when she was doubting herself. I remember at Skate Canada, she made mistake in her SP and cried I believe, Rafael encouraged her and told her not to doubt herself because she is the "Queen" or something to that extent and as a result, Mao was able to deliver a beautiful LP performance. On the other hand, Sato has the same expression most of the time lol and he is just so calm. I felt during some of the more disastrous competitions in 2011, Mao might have needed a strong encouraging voice to boost her confidence, yet there was minimal communication between them backstage or while waiting for the scores. I know that is his approach to coaching but I think at this point, Mao needs a coach or if not an advisor who can provide her with the confidence booster that she needs to return to the top.
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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:33 pm

thanks zarinaballerina and inskate, and I think Mao left Rafael because her mom, a chronic disease is expensive, I dont know how much money they have but surely she had medical security in Japan, Mao wanted to be with her mom, but now I think may be she doesnt want leave alone to Mai and her dad, after lose someone I suppose the person need to feel more close to her family
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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:39 pm

Ashley Wagner is in first place after winning the sp on Skate America with 60:61:

http://www.examiner.com/article/fueled-by-intensity-wagner-wins-short-at-skate-america
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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:40 pm

my favorite coach of mao's was definitely arutunian. she had more of a "spark" to her jumps when she was with him. her jumps weren't perfect by any means when she was with him, but i feel like that spark to her jumps helped her to be more competitive in a lot of different ways.

i think mao needs to improve her overall management. conditioning needs to be addressed and by the looks of it her conditioning is often times poor. a lot of mao's critics say that her programs aren't COP friendly. if that is the case, she and her team need to figure out the COP. her management needs to help her find programs that work for her and not against her/do nothing for her. i feel like mao's scheherezade and liebestraum programs did nothing for her. she was cute and happy in scheherezade, but many skating fans already know mao shows cute and happy sides already. as for liebestraum, it's a great program, but we already know she can do these "lovely mao princess" programs. sure, she became more expressive in her skating using liebestraum, but i don't think it did much for her. if she skated liebestraum six years ago i wouldn't have said that about liebestram. but mao is so much more than this lovely princess or a cute and happy skater (how mood setting and powerful her i vow to thee my country program is). mao's management seems to not know exactly "what just works" and "what is a program that will best suit mao."

as for alena, the first thing i thought when she took the ice is "morozombie will tear this program apart into pieces." i don't really know what happened because she looked quite confident when she first took the ice.

i've got to hand it to ashley and her team. even though i never liked her skating (likely never will) because it looks awkward to me and leaves me cold, i must congratulate her for her improvements she's made this past year. whatever she's been doing, it's working and whatever used to do that kept her off the olympic team she is no longer doing.
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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:37 pm

It looks like the Japanese men are going to sweep the podium Like a Star @ heaven

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PostSubject: taka just won!! :)   Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:49 pm

taka just won skate america.. yuzu had a bad skate, he fell three times.. japan just swept the podium..

here's the final tally..

1. Takahiko Kozuka JPN - 251.44
2. Yuzuru Hanyu JPN - 243.74
3. Tatsuki Machida JPN - 229.95
4. Konstantin Menshov RUS - 212.53
5. Jeremy Abbott USA - 211.35
6. Michal Brezina CZE - 209.67
7. Armin Mahbanoozadeh USA - 203.65
8. Tomas Verner CZE - 197.36
9. Douglas Razzano USA - 187.73
10. Alexander Majorov SWE - 182.42

the protocols

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpusa2012/gpusa2012_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:28 pm

That's the first thing I ever saw when I got online, loaded twitter and boom! Saw USFS congratulating Taka for the gold and Team Japan for the clean sweep. Wow! I thought that 10pt lead can never be toppled but obviously the ice is slippery during the FS. Still, Taka-chan won. Yes! And a clean sweep by Team Japan. Yes again! ♥ 3 falls from Yuzuru? Did he lose stamina again? I just hope team Orser will learn from this and improve Yuzuru's conditioning.

I gotta see more reports.
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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:41 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:06 am

What happened to Yuzu ? hope it's not his injury...


Congrats to Taka!!! YAY!!!




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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:19 am

No, he got injured during practice. I posted the following on the Facebook page:

I was actually at the practice, and Yuzuru fell REALLY BADLY on a quad. As in, he landed on his leg and then rolled onto his back. It was clearly very painful as he didn't skate for a couple of minutes. I think that really got to him.
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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:27 am

Alokya wrote:
No, he got injured during practice. I posted the following on the Facebook page:

I was actually at the practice, and Yuzuru fell REALLY BADLY on a quad. As in, he landed on his leg and then rolled onto his back. It was clearly very painful as he didn't skate for a couple of minutes. I think that really got to him.

Thank you Alokya.

Oh no..... I want him to take a rest and be prepared for Sochi.
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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:52 am

Alokya wrote:
No, he got injured during practice. I posted the following on the Facebook page:

I was actually at the practice, and Yuzuru fell REALLY BADLY on a quad. As in, he landed on his leg and then rolled onto his back. It was clearly very painful as he didn't skate for a couple of minutes. I think that really got to him.
He fall like that all the time, it was the same at Fin Trophy Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:16 am

Congrats to all three Japanese skaters!!! Confetti Boogie Now this a sweep I never thought i'd see at SA.

swan wrote:

i think mao needs to improve her overall management. conditioning needs to be addressed and by the looks of it her conditioning is often times poor. a lot of mao's critics say that her programs aren't COP friendly. if that is the case, she and her team need to figure out the COP. her management needs to help her find programs that work for her and not against her/do nothing for her. i feel like mao's scheherezade and liebestraum programs did nothing for her. she was cute and happy in scheherezade, but many skating fans already know mao shows cute and happy sides already. as for liebestraum, it's a great program, but we already know she can do these "lovely mao princess" programs. sure, she became more expressive in her skating using liebestraum, but i don't think it did much for her. if she skated liebestraum six years ago i wouldn't have said that about liebestram. but mao is so much more than this lovely princess or a cute and happy skater (how mood setting and powerful her i vow to thee my country program is). mao's management seems to not know exactly "what just works" and "what is a program that will best suit mao."

i've got to hand it to ashley and her team. even though i never liked her skating (likely never will) because it looks awkward to me and leaves me cold, i must congratulate her for her improvements she's made this past year. whatever she's been doing, it's working and whatever used to do that kept her off the olympic team she is no longer doing.

THIS. Thumbs up! Is she stil Weider? (sorry for the spelling) I haven't seen any videos of them lately.
I hope that for her Olympic long program she'll choose something that will be just as amazing as her last years EX (I vow to thee my country). Heck she could skate to Holst's "The Planets". It's a wonderful suite, I think it would suit her. Put the Jupiter part in the second half and it could blow everyone away. Lori are you reading this? Very Happy

The programs are one of the reason I'm a fan of team Orser. They, or better said David, adress the skaters strength and try to hide their weaknesses as much as possible, and the costumes are also nice.

I'm not a fan Ashley's either, but I agree. Moving to mr. Nicks was the best thing she's ever done. It also makes you see, what could've been with Sasha Cohen. During her time, there were a lot of reports that she didn't work as hard as she should and relied way too much on her talent.

alokya wrote:
I was actually at the practice, and Yuzuru fell REALLY BADLY on a quad. As in, he landed on his leg and then rolled onto his back. It was clearly very painful as he didn't skate for a couple of minutes. I think that really got to him.

affraid Yuzu, be careful!!! Hopefully it's nothing serious.
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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:56 am

zarinaballerina wrote:
Congrats to all three Japanese skaters!!! Confetti Boogie Now this a sweep I never thought i'd see at SA.

swan wrote:

i think mao needs to improve her overall management. conditioning needs to be addressed and by the looks of it her conditioning is often times poor. a lot of mao's critics say that her programs aren't COP friendly. if that is the case, she and her team need to figure out the COP. her management needs to help her find programs that work for her and not against her/do nothing for her. i feel like mao's scheherezade and liebestraum programs did nothing for her. she was cute and happy in scheherezade, but many skating fans already know mao shows cute and happy sides already. as for liebestraum, it's a great program, but we already know she can do these "lovely mao princess" programs. sure, she became more expressive in her skating using liebestraum, but i don't think it did much for her. if she skated liebestraum six years ago i wouldn't have said that about liebestram. but mao is so much more than this lovely princess or a cute and happy skater (how mood setting and powerful her i vow to thee my country program is). mao's management seems to not know exactly "what just works" and "what is a program that will best suit mao."

i've got to hand it to ashley and her team. even though i never liked her skating (likely never will) because it looks awkward to me and leaves me cold, i must congratulate her for her improvements she's made this past year. whatever she's been doing, it's working and whatever used to do that kept her off the olympic team she is no longer doing.

THIS. Thumbs up! Is she stil Weider? (sorry for the spelling) I haven't seen any videos of them lately.
I hope that for her Olympic long program she'll choose something that will be just as amazing as her last years EX (I vow to thee my country). Heck she could skate to Holst's "The Planets". It's a wonderful suite, I think it would suit her. Put the Jupiter part in the second half and it could blow everyone away. Lori are you reading this? Very Happy

The programs are one of the reason I'm a fan of team Orser. They, or better said David, adress the skaters strength and try to hide their weaknesses as much as possible, and the costumes are also nice.

I'm not a fan Ashley's either, but I agree. Moving to mr. Nicks was the best thing she's ever done. It also makes you see, what could've been with Sasha Cohen. During her time, there were a lot of reports that she didn't work as hard as she should and relied way too much on her talent.

alokya wrote:
I was actually at the practice, and Yuzuru fell REALLY BADLY on a quad. As in, he landed on his leg and then rolled onto his back. It was clearly very painful as he didn't skate for a couple of minutes. I think that really got to him.

affraid Yuzu, be careful!!! Hopefully it's nothing serious.
To Sasha note, I remember how in 2007 TAT said that Sasha was a super hard worker, so that wasn't her problem. She was just too stubborn.
I'm very happy for Taka!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:04 am

polosatik wrote:
To Sasha note, I remember how in 2007 TAT said that Sasha was a super hard worker, so that wasn't her problem. She was just too stubborn.

That's nice of TAT to say, especially if you remember what R.Wagner said about Sasha after the split. Disappointed

like i said, there were reports, one never knows waht's true and what not. But yes, I think everyone who has ever worked with Sasha will agree, that's she was very, very stubborn. Yep!

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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:17 am

cristinas sp was gourges my favourite sp of the ladies,it was really touching the music the choreography Wub

I also really loved harukas sp Encore

by the way i know that alena had another meltdown, but could anyone please post the sp, i still want to see it!
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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:42 am

ballerinamao wrote:

by the way i know that alena had another meltdown, but could anyone please post the sp, i still want to see it!

Here you go ballerinamao: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTjio4Tren4 (Alena's SP)
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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:46 am

I don't if it can be the factor but Alena missed her flight, and only got on plane the other day maybe she was very late (((
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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:04 am

Know I'm late on the subject but thanks inskate, polosatik, aoi...and everyone else for making me calm down a bit more about Mao's coach matter. Looking back on the matter, like polosatik said, I can't imagine Mao changing coaches anymore. At least not until Sochi is over. But if she doesn't manage to win in Sochi, I don't think she'll retire but go on competing, and maybe consider a new coach then.

And as for Yuzuru's meltdown in FP...I sort of imagined this coming. I don't think it's because he fell during practice. As I wrote yesterday in Yuzuru's corner in this forum, he hasn't finished growing up physically yet, his body is fragile, has asthma and an injury in his ankle, you can see clearly that his lips turn grey after skating even an SP...he obviously has to build more stamina if he wants to go on competing. I was more worried than disappointed during his FP; just imagine how his mother was feeling seeing him like that! Must have been worried sick! Yuzuru has to think again what his priorities are; achieving new quads or training his physical condition. I think it was good that he experienced a meltdown and Takahiko won SA. It's a good opportunity for Yuzuru to truely understand what you need to be on top of the podium. Yep, Sadly

But I think Yuzuru getting that crazy score yesterday lit a fire in Takahiko and Machida, which resulted in our boys all medalling. Congrats to all of them! So sorry for Jeremy...he's my US fave. No

Missed ladies today...on my way to YT!

Btw zarinaballerina, it seems Mao is still with the Weider team according to their site. But they were bashed quite a bit when Mao lost too much weight once, and alot of fans started questioning the teams tactics on making her peak at the right time (which they completely failed to do). So after that, they haven't been uplaoding much videos of Mao training with them on the net as they used to.

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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:40 am

PochinkoPotanko wrote:
Btw zarinaballerina, it seems Mao is still with the Weider team according to their site. But they were bashed quite a bit when Mao lost too much weight once, and alot of fans started questioning the teams tactics on making her peak at the right time (which they completely failed to do). So after that, they haven't been uplaoding much videos of Mao training with them on the net as they used to.

Thanks for the info.
I agree with the fans, if you're an expert and you're responsible for an athlete's physical condition, then you must make them peak at the right time and in generally keep them in good condition, or admit (to the athlete) that you have no idea what you're doing and give them a chance to find an expert who does.

I remember someone said on this forum, that Mao is their first figure skater, hopefully they figured out what went wrong these past years and will make her peak at the right moment this season. And posting some videos would also be nice.
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dangerous_angel_face
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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:57 am

I just want to say one thing, even though we may be huge fans of Mao, we don't know her. We don't know what's going on in her life, what she's thinking, in which circumstances she is training. It's like Mao's weight loss around 2011 worlds, some people blamed Sato, some people blamed Weider, even though noone had a clue about how it happened. She could have completely lost appetite because of her mom's illness and the tsunami on top of that, but we had no idea about her mom's situation. And yet, some people passionately wanted to find a culprit.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, since we don't spend our days with Mao, we're very very far from having the full picture of her life. We can always say "it's because of x that Mao can't peak at the right time/ skate with more confidence", but the only people who know what's going on and what can/should be done about it are Mao and those around her.
(sorry if this was incoherent and rambling)
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PostSubject: Re: Skate America 2012!   Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:25 am

dangerous_angel_face wrote:
I just want to say one thing, even though we may be huge fans of Mao, we don't know her. We don't know what's going on in her life, what she's thinking, in which circumstances she is training. It's like Mao's weight loss around 2011 worlds, some people blamed Sato, some people blamed Weider, even though noone had a clue about how it happened. She could have completely lost appetite because of her mom's illness and the tsunami on top of that, but we had no idea about her mom's situation. And yet, some people passionately wanted to find a culprit.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, since we don't spend our days with Mao, we're very very far from having the full picture of her life. We can always say "it's because of x that Mao can't peak at the right time/ skate with more confidence", but the only people who know what's going on and what can/should be done about it are Mao and those around her.
(sorry if this was incoherent and rambling)
You're right Smile Now she's shining and happy so I hope here bad days are over. Let's cheer for our girl together!
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