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ballerinamao
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:12 pm

well I think most people where taken by surprise by how a new for most unknwon skater could suddenly beat a world medalist, but like you showed if one looks at all the little details it does make sense, but the problem is not many go through the trouble of checking those things, I am quite impressed by how her team maximized her points in the program.
I also saw more potential in many of the other young japanese skaters, but time will tell which of them will survive puberty!







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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:11 pm

fgr8sktrfn wrote:


for some people complaining Satoko is somehow over-scored? where exactly she is over scored? not in her Technical Elements Score...she performed one of the most difficult technical elements,especially 3lutz/3toe, many creative transitions in between elements and excellent spins.


fgr8sktrfn, for once I disagree with you. IMO Satoko is a little over scored in TES, especially in GOE. Yes, her body is small, but her jumps are just so tiny even considering her age. The lack of height in her jumps is a big minus. I guess many of us just don't agree with those many +1 +2 GOE in her jumps. Judges were too generous to the young skater but harsh on Akiko this time. It might just be bad luck for Akiko, but I do feel sorry for her. Her performance should deserve a medal IMO.
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:16 pm

AmazingGraceMao wrote:
fgr8sktrfn wrote:


for some people complaining Satoko is somehow over-scored? where exactly she is over scored? not in her Technical Elements Score...she performed one of the most difficult technical elements,especially 3lutz/3toe, many creative transitions in between elements and excellent spins.


fgr8sktrfn, for once I disagree with you. IMO Satoko is a little over scored in TES, especially in GOE. Yes, her body is small, but her jumps are just so tiny even considering her age. The lack of height in her jumps is a big minus. I guess many of us just don't agree with those many +1 +2 GOE in her jumps. Judges were too generous to the young skater but harsh on Akiko this time. It might just be bad luck for Akiko, but I do feel sorry for her. Her performance should deserve a medal IMO.

even if her jump are tiny, she herself is tiny so maybe thats why they disregarded it, and don't forget the transitions she had in between her elements also increase the goe
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:46 pm

Thank you so much fgr8sktrfn for detailed analysis on Satoko's programs.
It really helps me understand figure skating better and better.

Her FP was choreographed by Tom Dickson and SP by Kenji Miyamoto.
Yes, her coach is Ms. Mie Hamada who coached Yukina. (Love Hearts)
Ms. Hamada has a coach in her team, Yamato Tamura, and I assume he teaches jumps.
They said in an interview before the start of this season that her programs for this season were packed with transitions and require good physical strength but they thought Satoko could stake them because she's tough.

Yamato says in his blog that they are so happy that Satoko finished on the podium and she had very good experience that she had to skate after Mao but she did very well. He knows that things would become less easy for her and also other juniors who did well at nationals this time from now on, especially when they will move on to seniors. She is 14 and has a long way to go. He's sure she's moved on and will be getting ready for next goal.



As I said earlier she's short for her age and thus I was concerned about her puberty, but I think she is in good hands under Ms. Hamada and Yamato.




First thing Yamato says to Nobu whenever he sees him is "do the math drills" lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:51 pm

AmazingGraceMao wrote:
fgr8sktrfn wrote:


for some people complaining Satoko is somehow over-scored? where exactly she is over scored? not in her Technical Elements Score...she performed one of the most difficult technical elements,especially 3lutz/3toe, many creative transitions in between elements and excellent spins.


fgr8sktrfn, for once I disagree with you. IMO Satoko is a little over scored in TES, especially in GOE. Yes, her body is small, but her jumps are just so tiny even considering her age. The lack of height in her jumps is a big minus. I guess many of us just don't agree with those many +1 +2 GOE in her jumps. Judges were too generous to the young skater but harsh on Akiko this time. It might just be bad luck for Akiko, but I do feel sorry for her. Her performance should deserve a medal IMO.

"AmazingGrace Mao"
let me just say what a beautiful username you have!!!
that's how I felt when I first saw Mao for the first time at the 2006 Skate America.
my first impression of Mao, graceful, elegant, ethereal, effortless.....so light on ice, a beautiful spiral. feather like jumps...I could go on....

let me be perfectly clear, I am not try to convince anyone to agree with me. we can agree to disagree. that is fine with me.

let me ask you a question? you are aware that there are more than one way to get a positive GoE on any element(jumps,spins,steps)? right?
I do agree that Satoko, for right now, will get any positive "bullet" point for her "height & distance" GoE.
but there are many other way to get a positive "bullet" points GoE.

Guidelines for marking + GoE
for +1: 2 bullets......for +2: 4 bullets..............for +3: 6 or more bullets

Jump Elements: positive bullets criteria
1) unexpected/creative/difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/ free skating moves immediately preceding elements
3) varied position in the air/ delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing/creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combination
7) effortless throughout
Cool element matched to the musical structure

I am not going to go through each element however to answer your argument that Satoko received +1 and +2 GoE for many of her jumps?
the "highest" GoE Satoko received was + 1.12 GoE for 3flip in the SP and + 1.12 GoE for 3flip in the LP.
in the 3flip in the SP: Satoko did a "arabesque" spiral followed by series of footwork(connecting steps) into the 3flip. with holding on the landing edges with nice flow...she could easily satisfied bullet point (1),(2),(5),(6),(7) and perhaps +2 GoE
her 3flip in the LP: out of a spiral followed by series of footwork(counter and a double threes) very difficult entry...again satisfied (1),(2),(5),(6),(7)
she received +1.12 GoE
3lz/3t in the LP: the most difficult element performed in this competition...nice entry speed and both 3lz and 3t rotated enough to get a full credit with nice flow coming out of 3toe....she received + 0.98 GoE...is it excessive GoE for this jump?
2a/3t in the LP....received + 0.84 in the second half..nice entry speed into 2a and 3toe rotated enough to get a full credit with nice flow coming out.
3lz/2t/2t in the LP..received + 0.84 GoE in the second half of the program...again nice entry speed with 2t/2t combo added...maintained good flow from the entry to the exit.
so where exactly Satoko received "excessive" or generous GoE she did not deserve?
I have seen on numerous "National" competitions where a certain skater receive +2 and +3 GoE for a very sloppy jumps(turn out, step out, hand down...etc)
if anything Japan Nationals are somewhat more strict(stingy) than the International Cometition events,IMO.
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:06 pm

linglang wrote:
Thank you so much fgr8sktrfn for detailed analysis on Satoko's programs.
It really helps me understand figure skating better and better.

Her FP was choreographed by Tom Dickson and SP by Kenji Miyamoto.
Yes, her coach is Ms. Mie Hamada who coached Yukina. (Love Hearts)
Ms. Hamada has a coach in her team, Yamato Tamura, and I assume he teaches jumps.
They said in an interview before the start of this season that her programs for this season were packed with transitions and require good physical strength but they thought Satoko could stake them because she's tough.

Yamato says in his blog that they are so happy that Satoko finished on the podium and she had very good experience that she had to skate after Mao but she did very well. He knows that things would become less easy for her and also other juniors who did well at nationals this time from now on, especially when they will move on to seniors. She is 14 and has a long way to go. He's sure she's moved on and will be getting ready for next goal.



As I said earlier she's short for her age and thus I was concerned about her puberty, but I think she is in good hands under Ms. Hamada and Yamato.

thanks again "linglang" for this information.
I am a big fan of Tom Dickson's choreography (if I am not mistaken Tom choreographed Yukina's brilliant SP "picasso Dance?") at the 2003 Skate Canada.
also, didn't Kenji Miyamoto choreograph Dai's "Eye" program? that is one of my favorite programs by Dai.
I appreciate your kind words "linglang".

ETA: I meant Satoko will NOT receive any positive GoE for her "height & distance) in regard to her jumps...that was mis quote..sorry.


First thing Yamato says to Nobu whenever he sees him is "do the math drills" lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:19 pm

well looks like I have missed out a lot! I am still on holiday in Taiwan so I didn't have much time to watch nats. I am happy for Mao! but sad for taka. will need to watch the videos once I get back. congrats to Mao meanwhile!
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:21 pm

Yes, Yukina's Picasso Dance is by T. Dickson. It has fabulous step sequence, doesn't it!? Her 2003 Skate Canada short is just Love Hearts Love Hearts Love Hearts
Yes, Kenji Miyamoto choreographed Dai's Eye. Eye is such a unique and fantastic program. I also love his work for Dai "Bachelorette" Very Happy

ETA: hohoho Merry Christmas!!

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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:22 pm

fgr8sktrfn, thank you for your very detailed analysis. It helps us very much to understand why they get the technical scores they get. Ill be sure to review the vids again and look at your analysis to help me understand more. Thumbs up!

And Mao's jumps at MOI looked great (to me) esp that first 2A and the 3F! I hope she can finally jump like that in competitions. That flip -- no hesitations, no slowing down. Love Hearts

Btw, Merry Christmas to you all!
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:40 pm

Mao-rry Christmas to you all!!!!!!!!!!!!!! santa santa Confetti

I will post other videos I saw on my channel

Like a Star @ heaven Akiko was a lot disappointed with her performance so Dai was there to comfort her Cloud 9 Sad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1tRoH-3-nU

Like a Star @ heaven Mao's interview on Medalist on Ice EX

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBXIjZOObmM

Oh this video is very interesting. Japanese media alraedy are building this rivalry Hanyu Yuzuru X Daisuke Takahashi. TBH Japan has a win-win situation on this and it's great to see they are competing on a whole another level from the others. I love them both so I am torn most of the times Lips sealed Love Hearts Mushy Love

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUvyFUMIu_I
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:55 pm

Dani-Chan wrote:
Mao-rry Christmas to you all!!!!!!!!!!!!!! santa santa Confetti

I will post other videos I saw on my channel

Like a Star @ heaven Akiko was a lot disappointed with her performance so Dai was there to comfort her Cloud 9 Sad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1tRoH-3-nU

Like a Star @ heaven Mao's interview on Medalist on Ice EX

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBXIjZOObmM

Oh this video is very interesting. Japanese media alraedy are building this rivalry Hanyu Yuzuru X Daisuke Takahashi. TBH Japan has a win-win situation on this and it's great to see they are competing on a whole another level from the others. I love them both so I am torn most of the times Lips sealed Love Hearts Mushy Love

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUvyFUMIu_I


Thanks for the link !

I agree they are both great skaters but I don't like the media always wanting to create rivalries. It only puts pressure on the skaters. In this case, it puts more pressure on Dai and Taka. Dai did mention on TV that 'he thinks that maybe people will think that his time is over' whereas it's not true. I think he's being honest about his feeling and worries, it's only putting pressure on his shoulders and nothing else. As for Taka, the media completely ignore him. Not even a mention about his injury. Very Mad
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:13 am

roma wrote:
fgr8sktrfn, thank you for your very detailed analysis. It helps us very much to understand why they get the technical scores they get. Ill be sure to review the vids again and look at your analysis to help me understand more. Thumbs up!

And Mao's jumps at MOI looked great (to me) esp that first 2A and the 3F! I hope she can finally jump like that in competitions. That flip -- no hesitations, no slowing down. Love Hearts

Btw, Merry Christmas to you all!

I agree Mao's both 2axel are huge and the 3flip is as good as it gets.
as you said, Mao went in full speed with no hesitation (NO hammer toes !!)
plus, I like this very creative entry preceding this 3flip.
Mao should be able to do this 3flip in the competition consistently. + 2 GoE quality.

ETA: thanks again for the information "linglang".

Merry Christmas to all the Mao fans in this forum.
thanks for the video link "Dani-Chan"
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:17 am

fgr8sktrfn wrote:

"AmazingGrace Mao"
let me just say what a beautiful username you have!!!
that's how I felt when I first saw Mao for the first time at the 2006 Skate America.
my first impression of Mao, graceful, elegant, ethereal, effortless.....so light on ice, a beautiful spiral. feather like jumps...I could go on....

let me be perfectly clear, I am not try to convince anyone to agree with me. we can agree to disagree. that is fine with me.

let me ask you a question? you are aware that there are more than one way to get a positive GoE on any element(jumps,spins,steps)? right?
I do agree that Satoko, for right now, will get any positive "bullet" point for her "height & distance" GoE.
but there are many other way to get a positive "bullet" points GoE.

Guidelines for marking + GoE
for +1: 2 bullets......for +2: 4 bullets..............for +3: 6 or more bullets

Jump Elements: positive bullets criteria
1) unexpected/creative/difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/ free skating moves immediately preceding elements
3) varied position in the air/ delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing/creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combination
7) effortless throughout
Cool element matched to the musical structure

I am not going to go through each element however to answer your argument that Satoko received +1 and +2 GoE for many of her jumps?
the "highest" GoE Satoko received was + 1.12 GoE for 3flip in the SP and + 1.12 GoE for 3flip in the LP.
in the 3flip in the SP: Satoko did a "arabesque" spiral followed by series of footwork(connecting steps) into the 3flip. with holding on the landing edges with nice flow...she could easily satisfied bullet point (1),(2),(5),(6),(7) and perhaps +2 GoE
her 3flip in the LP: out of a spiral followed by series of footwork(counter and a double threes) very difficult entry...again satisfied (1),(2),(5),(6),(7)
she received +1.12 GoE
3lz/3t in the LP: the most difficult element performed in this competition...nice entry speed and both 3lz and 3t rotated enough to get a full credit with nice flow coming out of 3toe....she received + 0.98 GoE...is it excessive GoE for this jump?
2a/3t in the LP....received + 0.84 in the second half..nice entry speed into 2a and 3toe rotated enough to get a full credit with nice flow coming out.
3lz/2t/2t in the LP..received + 0.84 GoE in the second half of the program...again nice entry speed with 2t/2t combo added...maintained good flow from the entry to the exit.
so where exactly Satoko received "excessive" or generous GoE she did not deserve?
I have seen on numerous "National" competitions where a certain skater receive +2 and +3 GoE for a very sloppy jumps(turn out, step out, hand down...etc)
if anything Japan Nationals are somewhat more strict(stingy) than the International Cometition events,IMO.

Absolutely, I remember last year they were very harsh on Mao. Mao received less GOE in 2A than Kanako and Akiko, got a UR call on 2A3T, and was penalized a lot on 3Lz, Bawling

Yes I know that height and width is just one element of GOE, but to me they are the most important ... I just couldn't convince myself... Hell, no!

And thank you for the detailed explanation, I did feel that Satoko's score was not that inflated after reading your post.

I am glad that you like my name!! Thank you! Merry Christmas to you!Merry Christmas to everyone!
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:30 am

ddmm wrote:
Dani-Chan wrote:
Mao-rry Christmas to you all!!!!!!!!!!!!!! santa santa Confetti

I will post other videos I saw on my channel

Like a Star @ heaven Akiko was a lot disappointed with her performance so Dai was there to comfort her Cloud 9 Sad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1tRoH-3-nU

Like a Star @ heaven Mao's interview on Medalist on Ice EX

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBXIjZOObmM

Oh this video is very interesting. Japanese media alraedy are building this rivalry Hanyu Yuzuru X Daisuke Takahashi. TBH Japan has a win-win situation on this and it's great to see they are competing on a whole another level from the others. I love them both so I am torn most of the times Lips sealed Love Hearts Mushy Love

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUvyFUMIu_I


Thanks for the link !

I agree they are both great skaters but I don't like the media always wanting to create rivalries. It only puts pressure on the skaters. In this case, it puts more pressure on Dai and Taka. Dai did mention on TV that 'he thinks that maybe people will think that his time is over' whereas it's not true. I think he's being honest about his feeling and worries, it's only putting pressure on his shoulders and nothing else. As for Taka, the media completely ignore him. Not even a mention about his injury. Very Mad

Yes. I agree with you. Other thing that worries me are possible injuries bc neither of them will easy down their layout. They will keep trying harder and harder layouts to try to outdo the other. But looking at the bright side, when Mao X Yuna rivalry was at it's peak, both skaters grew so much and accomplished a lot.
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:43 am

ballerinamao wrote:
well I think most people where taken by surprise by how a new for most unknwon skater could suddenly beat a world medalist, but like you showed if one looks at all the little details it does make sense, but the problem is not many go through the trouble of checking those things, I am quite impressed by how her team maximized her points in the program.
I also saw more potential in many of the other young japanese skaters, but time will tell which of them will survive puberty!

AmazingGraceMao wrote:
fgr8sktrfn wrote:


for some people complaining Satoko is somehow over-scored? where exactly she is over scored? not in her Technical Elements Score...she performed one of the most difficult technical elements,especially 3lutz/3toe, many creative transitions in between elements and excellent spins.


fgr8sktrfn, for once I disagree with you. IMO Satoko is a little over scored in TES, especially in GOE. Yes, her body is small, but her jumps are just so tiny even considering her age. The lack of height in her jumps is a big minus. I guess many of us just don't agree with those many +1 +2 GOE in her jumps. Judges were too generous to the young skater but harsh on Akiko this time. It might just be bad luck for Akiko, but I do feel sorry for her. Her performance should deserve a medal IMO.

I'm sorry fgr8sktrfn, but your scoring analysis didn't convince me either...but it's not because I felt your analysis is wrong in any way. You know much more about the rules and the elements than me, so I know that all you say is true based on the current system, and Satoko deserved every bit of the scores she got.

But the thing is...like ballerinamao said, not all people care about protocols and how the scores are given. And I admit that I am basically one of them. Yes, I just dumped my chances on becoming best figure fan of the year by admitting that probabaly, but I'm no judge, so I basically feel I do not have to think like one. I think anyone who sees a competition can feel however they want to any skaters' performance, even if that person should no nothing about the rules or how difficult or not each elements are. This is because I've always considered figure skating as a sort of 'appreciation sport'; in simple words, I'm trying to say it's a performance as much as it is a sport. And where there's performance, you always need an audience whom not all of them will ever see the sport from a judges' point of view. Such audiences would most likely be thrilled to see a mere 3t-3t with height and length, rather than say a low and tiny 3lz-3t. That may sound ignorant and wrong, but I think that kind of thrill that they felt does mean something, and should be counted more or less when the judges score the skaters. It's not always just the techs which moves the audience. There's always something else which is definitely needful to really make the audience applaud and cheer like crazy. I think skaters like Mao, Dai and some other top seniors have that something, but Satoko doesn't (yet). So in that sense, although I agree Satoko was fairly scored according to the rules, I do feel a bit disturbed that Akiko or Rika Hongo wasn't on the podium instead of her.

I've always felt that the judges seem to lack their responsibility on reflecting how the audience felt towards performances. How many times have we seen or read fans complaining they don't agree with the scores and results? It's impossible to make everyone happy and convinced, I know. But in figure skating, the amount of times that fans get frustrated with the results seems way too much to me. Fans may not be specialists, but they are the audience watching the performances. They have every right to feel something is not right when what they felt from a performance is not properly reflected in the scores. Plus, even if most of them can't tell the difference between say a lutz and a flip, I believe they can still capture the souls and passions of skaters through their performances. But the judges tend to ignore all that and score the skaters in a totally different way. This arouses alot of frustration in the sport, plus it arouses ugly wars between fans. This is also one of the reasons there aren't that many fans of the sport, too; only very few people like us care to bother watching a sport which always leaves us with some amount of frustration. Therefore, I cannot possibly think the current system is working fine (TES is probably okay but as for GOEs and PCS, never!), thus I can't be convinced that Satoko should've been scored that highly according to such a system either even if it's fair.

Akiko made too many mistakes, so I think her landing behind Satoko was unavoidable. But I strongly felt Rika was very much underscored compared to Satoko. I don't know how many of you were able to see the competition on tv or streaming, but if you did, I'm almost sure that you would've been able to see how so overwhelmed the audience was with Rikas' performance compared to Satokos'. Quite a few of us in Jpn are already commenting on the net that they'd expected higher scores for Rika. They're mostly fans in general, not Rikas' fans. I think the fact that Rika left a good strong impression on them means alot! Satoko did charm us, but she didn't move or excite us like Rika, Mao or Kanako did. Even when it's hard for them to be reflected in scores due to the current system, I still believe that more of how the audience felt should be taken into consideration in judging. If ISU or any Fed feels differently, I think they might as well go on with their competitions without selling tickets. If the judges, or only fans who have the same level of knowledge as the judges are the only ones who are allowed to feel and say how they thought about competition results and performances, alot of frustrated fans will end up giving up on this sport altogether, and I do not want to see that happen. Yep, Sadly

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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:37 am

"pochinkopotanko"
Merry Christmas to you !!
well, you sure are entitled to your opinion though I feel differently about how Satoko finished based on her "contents".
in my opinion, she earned her placement based on her performances both in the SP and LP.
let me comment on Akiko Suzuki first:
in my opinion, Akiko 'should' have won the Gold at the 2012 Skate Canada over Katelyn Osmond.
yes, Akiko was behind Katelyn in the SP by score of 60.56 to 55.12.
but the biggest travesty is how the PCS was scored in the LP, particularly Katelyn
out-scored Akiko in these 3 categories:
P/E(performance/execution) Katelyn(7.61) to Akiko(7.57)
CH(choreography)...........................(7.46) to.........(7.43)
IN(interpretation)..............................(7.61) to........(7.57)
costing the Gold by a score of 176.45 to 175.16 to a new comer.

in the 2012 NHK, I was defending against all those haters attacking Mao for being "gifted" "over scored"...etc
I gave my analysis based on what Mao did in the SP: Mao(67.95) to Akiko(58.60)
Mao had over 9 points lead(9.35 to be exact)
Akiko out-performed in the LP by score of 126.62 to 117.32
I already gave my detail analysis so I will not go over it again.
the question was Akiko did enough to win the over all score(SP + LP) to win over Mao?
in my opinion, Akiko "should" have won over Mao.....probably
.....................Akiko "could" have won over Mao.......definitely
the margin was so so small, Mao(185.27) to Akiko(185.22)
in my opinion, Akiko was under scored in these 3 categories, P/E definitely
CH...very close.....IN...probably
the "big" difference between Mao and Katelyn is:
Mao is a Olympic Silver Medalist and a 2 time World Champion.

at this 2012 Japan Nationals is a totally different story.
Akiko made too many errors in the LP and your contentions of GoE and PCS scoring doesn't hold any water with me. you don't need to review the protocols just watch the performance objectively(without bias) you should be able to come up with a reasonable explanation why Satoko finished ahead of Akiko.
if you don;t see that then we simply disagree with your perception of how a skater should be scored based on what a skater did.
for your record, Akiko out scored Satoko in PCS...32.32 to 25.56 in SP
and Akiko out scored Satoko in PCS....................62.80 to 55.76 in LP
totally different scenario from 2012 Skate Canada and 2012 NHK.

ETA: as you mentioned this skater, Rika Hongo, she is a lovely skater with a raw potential. yes, I like her jumps very much but I like everything else(skating skills, transitions, spins, spirals, footwork) by Satoko.
as I said earlier with other poster it is perfectly fine with me to have an opinion different from me.
perhaps, I am more analytical to watch the skater below the knees(more specifically ankles). that is why I am so encouraged with Mao's progress, though it is sometimes painfully slow but I truly believe Mao has turned the corner and on her up-swing from here to Sochi !!!
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:10 am

Merry Christmas everyone!

I can't believe I actually spend a week without internet, I was so freaking busy... Unconscious , but I couldn't come to better news. I'm soooo happy Mao won her 6th national title! Happy dance Go Mao! Cheering And I'm happy that she made mistakes, I personally don't want to see her peak now, but I want to see that happen at worlds.

Ok, what was the judge who gave her -2 for choreo sequence smokin'? Suspect Evil or Very Mad Seriously?!

I'm actually shocked that Yuzu won, though I absolutely adore him, but I still expected Dai to win. scratch
I'm heartbroken for Taka, but him being injured and not qualifying for 4CC and wolrds it's the best scenario imo, since this way he'll be forced to rest and heal properly, so he can kick butt next season!

linglang wrote:
Mao says "My performance today was mixture of good part and bad part. I've found a lot of issues that I will needs to work on. I'm motivated even more to work harder for the next competition." "I'm happy that I've won the title but this result does not boost confidence." "It's important not to rush, but I think I will feel happy when I land 3-3 and 3A which I used have in the programs." "I want to be aggressive and practice more challenging jumps at training."

Fighter Mao is coming back Twisted Evil

YES, this has made my day, go Mao, you can absolutely do it! Yep! I can't wait to see this. Swoon
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:34 pm

Merry Christmas to everyone Like a Star @ heaven

Congratulations to MAO and DAI, both of them skated the most beautiful and passionate FS, congratulations to Yuzu too Confetti

I can't wait to see Mao again, to much time until 4CC Unconscious

3A and 3F-3L, 3F-3T or 3L-3L? At SP, at FS, at both of them? So much excitement!!!!!


Last edited by Ken Himura on Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:50 pm

Im guessing she will only add 3-3 to SP maybe? since she's going to canada? 2A, 3F-3T , 3L would be splendid cheers I can't imagine her going for a 3A though in the short with a 3-3? or will she surprise us Embarassed
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:17 pm

Mao is pretty unpredictable, when it comes to her nothing would surprise me, because anything can happen!
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:40 am

fgr8sktrfn wrote:
"pochinkopotanko"
Merry Christmas to you !!
well, you sure are entitled to your opinion though I feel differently about how Satoko finished based on her "contents".
in my opinion, she earned her placement based on her performances both in the SP and LP.
let me comment on Akiko Suzuki first:
in my opinion, Akiko 'should' have won the Gold at the 2012 Skate Canada over Katelyn Osmond.
yes, Akiko was behind Katelyn in the SP by score of 60.56 to 55.12.
but the biggest travesty is how the PCS was scored in the LP, particularly Katelyn
out-scored Akiko in these 3 categories:
P/E(performance/execution) Katelyn(7.61) to Akiko(7.57)
CH(choreography)...........................(7.46) to.........(7.43)
IN(interpretation)..............................(7.61) to........(7.57)
costing the Gold by a score of 176.45 to 175.16 to a new comer.

in the 2012 NHK, I was defending against all those haters attacking Mao for being "gifted" "over scored"...etc
I gave my analysis based on what Mao did in the SP: Mao(67.95) to Akiko(58.60)
Mao had over 9 points lead(9.35 to be exact)
Akiko out-performed in the LP by score of 126.62 to 117.32
I already gave my detail analysis so I will not go over it again.
the question was Akiko did enough to win the over all score(SP + LP) to win over Mao?
in my opinion, Akiko "should" have won over Mao.....probably
.....................Akiko "could" have won over Mao.......definitely
the margin was so so small, Mao(185.27) to Akiko(185.22)
in my opinion, Akiko was under scored in these 3 categories, P/E definitely
CH...very close.....IN...probably
the "big" difference between Mao and Katelyn is:
Mao is a Olympic Silver Medalist and a 2 time World Champion.

at this 2012 Japan Nationals is a totally different story.
Akiko made too many errors in the LP and your contentions of GoE and PCS scoring doesn't hold any water with me. you don't need to review the protocols just watch the performance objectively(without bias) you should be able to come up with a reasonable explanation why Satoko finished ahead of Akiko.
if you don;t see that then we simply disagree with your perception of how a skater should be scored based on what a skater did.
for your record, Akiko out scored Satoko in PCS...32.32 to 25.56 in SP
and Akiko out scored Satoko in PCS....................62.80 to 55.76 in LP
totally different scenario from 2012 Skate Canada and 2012 NHK.

ETA: as you mentioned this skater, Rika Hongo, she is a lovely skater with a raw potential. yes, I like her jumps very much but I like everything else(skating skills, transitions, spins, spirals, footwork) by Satoko.
as I said earlier with other poster it is perfectly fine with me to have an opinion different from me.
perhaps, I am more analytical to watch the skater below the knees(more specifically ankles). that is why I am so encouraged with Mao's progress, though it is sometimes painfully slow but I truly believe Mao has turned the corner and on her up-swing from here to Sochi !!!

No offense, but I can't see why you're bringing up SA and NHK here...and I don't recall saying Akiko should've scored more than Satoko, did I??? I thought Rika was underscored, not Akiko. I don't give much of a damn about the scorings anymore, so Satoko making bronze bothered me a bit as I've said before, but not as much as you seem to think. What bothers me is how the system is, allowing the judges to handing out PCS according to their subjective views on certain skaters. Most of the components in PCS can only be judged subjectively IMO, but I feel that sometimes there's too much a huge gap between the how the judges score PCS and what the audience saw and felt from a skaters' performance; I'm talking esp about PE and IN. I think that the skater who simply 'delivered the best' in a competition should get the highest PE if not IN. When I say 'delivered the best', I do not mean who skated the most difficult elements clean, but rather who moved the audience emotionally the most. And this time, I thought Rika accomplished that much more than Satoko, therefore I can't help feeling Satoko was overscored and Rika was underscored.

Now, you seem to think I'm biased about Satoko, but was I? This was about the second time I ever saw her skate in a competition, and I don't even remember how I thought about her the first time; except maybe that she's small and adorable. So I'm pretty sure I wasn't biased when I started seeing her perform at Nats this time in any way what so ever. I assume it was the same with most of the people in the audience, too. It was only after she started to skate that I felt she had her hands full with doing the least she had to do, with no room in her mind to put more passion into her performance...but I really do not want to go into pointing out all the things which I felt were missing in Satokos' skate just to convince you or anyone else, so I'm not. I don't mind at all if most of you do not agree with me. That's just normal in this sport; all fans will never totally agree on any matter. So I thing it's more or less meaningless to try to convince eachother by pointing out how good or bad Satoko, Rika or Akiko was. The main reason I wrote my opinions in my former post was because I wanted to point out that I for one thinks something is very wrong with the system and the judges. They are not reflecting the audiences' impressions in the scores that much, and that's the biggest reason why we all get frustrated from time to time with this sport. I think that is one big problem which I acknowledged once again in Jpn Nats this time. I appreciate your analysis of the scorings, but that is not going to change how I felt about a skaters' performance. I assume you were trying to make me understand how the scores come out by going through the results of SA and NHK, but that can't change what I felt either. You are probabaly correct in saying since the judges scored certain other skaters in the past in the manners they did, Satoko deserved every single score she got. I can understand that theoretically...but then again, this is a sport not a law trial. I'm sorry but the way you're seemingly trying to convince me that I'm wrong feels a little too systematic to me. I might've thought twice if only you had simply said you were much more moved by Satokos' performance, but you just kept saying she was better than Akiko and Rika. I think we're merely expecting different types of pleasures from this sport. I guess I'm more of a 6.0 period type of fan and not much of a CoP supporter...so I do agree that Satoko earned her scores fairly in most elements according to the rules. I'm only saying that the rules aren't working in the way they really should be. I've got nothing against Satoko nor you.

But plz let me add just one more thing...I do not know which country you're living in, but if you knew what's been going on amongst Jpnse fans before and even much more after Nats, I think you would've been able to understand why I had to write all this. The fans in my country have started to change in very bad ways over the past few seasons. I'm not going to write about what they're actually saying and doing, because if I do some anti-Jpnse folks in other countries will make worse use of that info; but my friends and I have been discussing these problems in our Jpnse figure skating forum, and we all basically came to the conclusion that the frustrations aroused by the scorings and the outcomes of competitions are the main reasons why those who were once polite admirable fans are turning into furious monsters. I hate to admit it, but even GS and FSU are a much more healthier envoironment for fans to be in, when you compare them to how major Jpnse BBs are nowadays when it comes to figure skating. I wish I had the luxury to think the current judging system is okay, but I can't afford that anymore, cause however much Mao is loved in my country, there's no telling when those monsters may suddenly start taking their frustrations out on her, just like they're already doing it to certain other Jpnse skaters. Those monsters are even bothering to bash some of my friends in the Jpnse forum and me just because we don't agree to what they're doing. They target us by mentioning our IDs in the forum or HNs in other places around the net accusing us to be enemies against the 'justice of the sport'...quite a few of the members in our Jpnse forum used to be main members here...well, they're still members but they don't show up anymore thesedays. Can you imagine why? They still love Mao and the sport so much, they've become too worn out about discussing scores and ranks with others anymore. We're all much older than most of you here; we have children and old aged parents we have to care about, so most of us just want to enjoy the sport in peace. I don't think I'll be posting much here anymore. I'm getting too worn out thesedays myself, and the members who I was close to here in the past are mostly gone now. I think I'll just go on supporting Mao mainly in some other places from now on. I'll try not to post stuff that may disturb you guys here. I'll come and read sometimes, but I won't post unless I really feel I need to do so...sorry for being such an ass more or less this season. I'll miss all the fun we used to have, doing projects for Mao etc...But I'm going to focus within my country for a while to try to make some changes if I could. Thank you and bye for now all! Go on and support Mao! Thumbs up!

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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:44 am

"No offense, but I can't see why you're bringing up SA and NHK here...and I don't recall saying Akiko should've scored more than Satoko, did I??? I thought Rika was underscored, not Akiko. I don't give much of a damn about the scorings anymore, so Satoko making bronze bothered me a bit as I've said before, but not as much as you seem to think. What bothers me is how the system is, allowing the judges to handing out PCS according to their subjective views on certain skaters. Most of the components in PCS can only be judged subjectively IMO, but I feel that sometimes there's too much a huge gap between the how the judges score PCS and what the audience saw and felt from a skaters' performance; I'm talking esp about PE and IN. I think that the skater who simply 'delivered the best' in a competition should get the highest PE if not IN. When I say 'delivered the best', I do not mean who skated the most difficult elements clean, but rather who moved the audience emotionally the most. And this time, I thought Rika accomplished that much more than Satoko, therefore I can't help feeling Satoko was over scored and Rika was underscored."

well no offense,but the reason I brought up Skate Canada and NHK , especially your claim is that Akiko was a clear winner over Mao based on her Free Skate?
your biggest complaint I recall and you stated here again that mis-application of PCS scoring. if that was your argument then how do you explain how Akiko was "generously" scored in this competition?
this is how Akiko was scored at the 2012 NHK(perhaps, her best LP performance this season).
NHK.....................Japan Nats
SS..7.82...............8.05
TR..7.39...............7.65
P/E.7.93...............7.60
CH..7.86...............8.00
IN...7.82................7.95 a bit generous?

I really did not want to do this but this is how these tech. panels and the judges evaluated Akiko's LP performance at the 2012 Japan Nationals.
singled 3flip into a 1flip/2toe/2lo (2lo is clearly under-rotated by more than 1/4 turn and they could easily gave her "<" or even "<<"
2a/3t......3toe is under rotated "<"
3lz.........3lz is under rotated "<" with a wrong edge "e"
3f..........fall, automatic -3 GoE(madatory deductions)
3lo/2t.....very tight landing on 3lo......0 GoE
3s.........only clean landing......0.56 + GoE
2a......another very tight landing...could easily received "<"...0 GoE
out of 7 jumping passes...1 clean landing
......................................1 fall
......................................2 under rotations
......................................1 edge call
......................................1 popped jump
.......................................2 shaky landing
yet Akiko deserved higher P/E(performance execution) than Satoko who only made a 1 mistake(3lo "<<").....7.60...to 7.05 ? is this fair to you?
didn't a fall on 3flip disrupt her choreography , performance/execution and interpretation?
furthermore, Satoko had many more transitonal moves(footwork transitions and skating move transitions) than Akiko but she received lower transition score than Akiko?
Akiko(7.65) to Satoko (6.85) is this fair to you?
if you didn't notice watching Akiko's jumping technique.....she takes long preparations edges into many of her jumps...this is commonly known as "telegraphing"
if these judges are strict and applied existing GoE guide lines..it should be penelized by -1 to -2 depending on the length(time) to set up a jump.
that is the biggest reason she received very little or no Positive GoE for any of her jumps. she looked very tight to me at this competition for some reason.
you can keep on repeating what you believe based on your perception of whom should placed where but I am offering tangible evidence based on this current judging system "IJS" or CoP".
as I said I am not try to convinve anyone to prove my point but these are "actual" scoring(protocols) prvided by Japanese Tech. Panels's assesment and Judges at this competition. you have every right to believe or disregard it however you feel.
my original posting regrad to Satoko Miyahara was based on what I obseved and re-watching the performances again on you tube with full analysis based to the "protocols" giving at this competition.
I really don't have a dog in this debate either way but I felt some of comments directed towards Satoko was unfair and un-warranted without any "fact" to support their argument(such as Satoko was "over scored" or someone else should scored higher without any evidence to support it).
I am not going to comment on Rina Hongo. I have said in my previous post.
in my opinion,if Akiko was "unfairly under-scored" at the 2012 NHK then she was very "generously" scored here at the 2012 Japan Nationals, especially in the PCS.
whether you agree or disagree, I at least offer some factual evidence to back it up my claim opposed to so many people on "other" forum" keep repeating this skster is over-scored or that skater was "under-scored" routines.
this will be my last posting regard to this subject(Satoko's score and the placement at the 2012 Japan Nationals).
have a Happy Holidays "pochinkopotanko), at least we agree that both of us support Mao Asada!!
have a nice day!!
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:29 am

PochinkoPotanko wrote:

I don't think I'll be posting much here anymore. I'm getting too worn out thesedays myself, and the members who I was close to here in the past are mostly gone now. I think I'll just go on supporting Mao mainly in some other places from now on. I'll try not to post stuff that may disturb you guys here. I'll come and read sometimes, but I won't post unless I really feel I need to do so...sorry for being such an ass more or less this season. I'll miss all the fun we used to have, doing projects for Mao etc...But I'm going to focus within my country for a while to try to make some changes if I could. Thank you and bye for now all! Go on and support Mao! Thumbs up!

PochinkoPotanko no, Bad idea! please don't go, we love you! You are so appreciated as a Mao supporter! You and Linglang have done so much translation of Mao's news for us. Thank you! And please stay!

fgr8sktrfn wrote:

whether you agree or disagree, I at least offer some factual evidence to back it up my claim opposed to so many people on "other" forum" keep repeating this skster is over-scored or that skater was "under-scored" routines.

fgr8sktrfn, I appreciate your effort a lot! I love reading your analysis and learning from it. Please do more often! lol!

Guys, don't you think we need different voices in our forum to clear things up? Sometimes things don't come out as we expect, but what can we ask for more when we have such lovely Mao who is so talented and graceful, but still trying to be better? And she is progressing steadily!!

I don't care if she will win Olympics or not, she is the best thing happens to us Mao fans! Just watching her progress little by little makes me feel life is so wonderful! flower
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:37 am

guys please loosen up, there is no need to make a bigger deal out of it, because i think we in general all agree on most things. and feeling differently about somethings is just a natural thing that's unavoidable. I hope this discussion won't change much !

one of the things I love about this forum is that there is room for different opinions and constructive discussions, so please i hope to see you all keep voicing and discussing the same way we always have!







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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:57 am

Can't help but wonder, did Dai comfort Mao in oly'10?
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