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ballerinamao
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:24 am

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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:14 am

agathrine wrote:
Can't help but wonder, did Dai comfort Mao in oly'10?

I have never seen any video on that but looking at Dai's kind personality, I am sure he did. We've seen Mao comforted by Mai on TV and she cried. I think Mai was the only one at that time who knew all the reasons why Mao cried (she wanted to bring back gold for their mother, didn't she ?).


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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:16 am

PochinkoPotanko Why bb? u want to leave us? Crying or Very sad Bawling Potato senpai, don't do it. Worship
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:25 am

PochinkoPotanko, please, don't leave us Depressed Crying
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:49 pm

Pochinko I hope you don't go! I know you are one of the most popular, most respected members on here. I have been so busy the last couple weeks, and I haven't hardly been on here lately. I haven't even gotten to participate in this whole thread at all, and I don't think I got to for GPF either. I'm so behind on figure skating! Anyway, I just came onto the forum for the first time in a while. I won't have time to catch up on the dozens of pages I missed, but I did see this page. I'm sure you will be greatly missed if you go. Maybe I would be missed a little if I left, but not like you would be! Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:32 am

I am on vacation but I occasionally check my phone for updates here in the forum. Sorry if I just logged in now. Sweatdrop First of all, congratulations Mao! You are so amazing and I am so happy for your 6th National title. Your programs still look far from 'perfect' but you're getting there!

Also, I would just like to say that I appreciate all voices here in Mao forum because it makes me feel that we are a very open community. So please, let's not fight! We can disagree all we want but at the end of the day, it's our love for Mao that keeps us together.

Wishing you guys a happy new year! Cheering
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:03 am

PochinkoPotanko wrote:
I think I'll just go on supporting Mao mainly in some other places from now on. I'll try not to post stuff that may disturb you guys here. I'll come and read sometimes, but I won't post unless I really feel I need to do so...sorry for being such an ass more or less this season.

Okay, now I really feel that way, so I'm back again.

fgr8sktrfn wrote:

well no offense,but the reason I brought up Skate Canada and NHK , especially your claim is that Akiko was a clear winner over Mao based on her Free Skate?
your biggest complaint I recall and you stated here again that mis-application of PCS scoring. if that was your argument then how do you explain how Akiko was "generously" scored in this competition?
this is how Akiko was scored at the 2012 NHK(perhaps, her best LP performance this season).
NHK.....................Japan Nats
SS..7.82...............8.05
TR..7.39...............7.65
P/E.7.93...............7.60
CH..7.86...............8.00
IN...7.82................7.95 a bit generous?

Oh, so that's what this is all about, huh? No offense? Merry Christmas? Happy Holidays? Cut the 'all you need is love' crap! I've been crappy as well, but since this is really going to be my last post on this matter, this time I'm going to be totally honest with you. If my memory's correct, I remember posting that I made too much a big deal about the NHK results, decided not to mention anything about that competition again, and afterwards I didn't. I tried the best I can to stick to giving infos from within my country here on Mao, cause I thought that was the least I can do to make eveyone feel happy and look forward to Maos' future, however they thought about that NHK matter. Alot of members wanted the NHK matter to be left behind so we can move on supporting Mao, but you brought it back, and I am quite cross about that.

I thought we were all merely expressing our thoughts about Nats as usual, but then you had to bring out NHK again, cause you obviously seem to be biased about me on my impressions on that one competition, which me and all my Jpnse fan pals had to take alot of time and effort to make peace with. We've all analyzed the rules and the scores just like you, and we concluded Maos' win was fair. But we did and still do keep in mind that Akikos' FP in NHK moved us more than Maos' FP and SP; which meant alot to us, so much that we felt strongly once again that there still are problems in the CoP system. We did not start to ask questions about the current system since NHK though, we've been doing that over and over eversince we started our forum; we translated almost everything written on the rules in the ISU site, and we've discussed many issues from as many different points of views as we can. But we do not put much weight on how and why the judges scored as they did. We put more weight on how we would've scored performances according to the rules. We're still probabaly steps way back from you on understanding how the system works, but we think we're entitled to do so because we most of us have been fans of the sport for a very long time now, and we believe that the tech callers and judges cannot always be trusted. They're human afterall, so they do misjudge sometimes as you must already know.

Quote :
I really did not want to do this but this is how these tech. panels and the judges evaluated Akiko's LP performance at the 2012 Japan Nationals.
singled 3flip into a 1flip/2toe/2lo (2lo is clearly under-rotated by more than 1/4 turn and they could easily gave her "<" or even "<<"
2a/3t......3toe is under rotated "<"
3lz.........3lz is under rotated "<" with a wrong edge "e"
3f..........fall, automatic -3 GoE(madatory deductions)
3lo/2t.....very tight landing on 3lo......0 GoE
3s.........only clean landing......0.56 + GoE
2a......another very tight landing...could easily received "<"...0 GoE
out of 7 jumping passes...1 clean landing
......................................1 fall
......................................2 under rotations
......................................1 edge call
......................................1 popped jump
.......................................2 shaky landing
yet Akiko deserved higher P/E(performance execution) than Satoko who only made a 1 mistake(3lo "<<").....7.60...to 7.05 ? is this fair to you?
didn't a fall on 3flip disrupt her choreography , performance/execution and interpretation?
furthermore, Satoko had many more transitonal moves(footwork transitions and skating move transitions) than Akiko but she received lower transition score than Akiko?
Akiko(7.65) to Satoko (6.85) is this fair to you?


If you didn't want to do it, then you shouldn't have bothered to! You're just making it look like I pushed you into pointing out Akikos' mistakes, while I've said over and over that I'm totally aware of it.

Quote :
I said I am not try to convinve anyone to prove my point but these are "actual" scoring(protocols) prvided by Japanese Tech. Panels's assesment and Judges at this competition. you have every right to believe or disregard it however you feel.

Really? Are you sure? It seems alot to me like you are going through a hell of alot of protocol analysis and teaching us about skating elements at the same time. I can't imagine why you'd want to do that unless you wanted us to be convinced by all your views. But hey wait a sec...no, you're just trying to make us accept the judges' views not yours. And I guess, that's the part I have a problem with cause I basically don't care that much about the scorings. I don't care because I'm no judge so I prefer to stick to what I've only felt from performances as a mere fan of the sport in the audience. I totally believe that that's just about all that fans should be doing in the first place. We're not the skaters in the competitions, nor are we judges. But as a fan, I think there are roles which we should stick to rather than comparing protocols over and over. My opinion is that the audience should keep away a bit from the scorings and appeal to the judges and the skaters how we felt about their performances as appreciators. If that's not so, they shouldn't score anything like PE, cause there wouldn't be anybody to feel something from performances and emphathize with the skaters. The judges IMO can never play the role of the audience. They're too busy watching just the skills and putting them into numbers during a performance. When they're done with that then they go on to scoring PCS, in which I highly doubt they have the ability to do it correctly after watching a performance focusing mainly on handing out GOEs. Figure skating performances are not just a load of amazing skills, but are also works of art as well. And art can never be put into numbers; the judges have to do so cause it's a competing event, but I find it rather absurd. Do you know how many long hours of debate the judges at Festival de Cannes go through to choose the right film to give the Palm d'Or to? I perfectly understand the unfortunate fact that figure skating judges do not have enough time like them, but I still think that's the true proper way they should be doing it if they could. And during such film festival judgings, they take alot of consideration on how the audience accepted the nominated films. No film ever wins even if its' skills are perfect, unless the audience truely appreciates them, cause theoretically there's no film in existance without anybody watching it. I think the same can be said about skating performances, too. That's why I will not accept being convinced by the judges nor anyone who seems to speak on behalf of them like you, if I do not agree with what they say. I acknowledge myself as one of the audience, and so I believe I have a different role to play.

Quote :
my original posting regrad to Satoko Miyahara was based on what I obseved and re-watching the performances again on you tube with full analysis based to the "protocols" giving at this competition.
I really don't have a dog in this debate either way but I felt some of comments directed towards Satoko was unfair and un-warranted without any "fact" to support their argument(such as Satoko was "over scored" or someone else should scored higher without any evidence to support it).
I am not going to comment on Rina Hongo. I have said in my previous post.
in my opinion,if Akiko was "unfairly under-scored" at the 2012 NHK then she was very "generously" scored here at the 2012 Japan Nationals, especially in the PCS.
whether you agree or disagree, I at least offer some factual evidence to back it up my claim opposed to so many people on "other" forum" keep repeating this skster is over-scored or that skater was "under-scored" routines.

First of all, you can never see the whole picture by just watching YT vids over and over. It's always harder to make out how the audience was reacting to a performance or score, compared to being at the stadium or watching it on a larger tv screen. Plus, in those Jpnse tv broadcast vids they usually edit the sounds of the audience lower than it actually was. So you probabaly got everything right about the skills in a performance, but I can't say the same when it comes to whether you got a proper grasp of how the audience felt about it. There are these 'special somethings' (some seem to call it the 'it' factor) which those who share the same air in the stadium can sense in a skaters' performance. I know that from experience so I try to pay attention to the audience to try to understand what they're feeling as much as I can. The 'special somethings' cannot be seen, heard or touched that clearly, so it may not stand out as 'facts' or 'evidence' to you, but I think it's as important as scores; maybe sometimes more important than scores.

Secondly, nobody has to give detailed 'facts' on how they felt about a performance at all. The only true 'facts' for the audience and fans are what they solely felt from a performance; definitely not the numbers the judges calculated and labelled on them. Nobody has to take in consideration how the judges scored a performance unless they are up to it. Why? Because as I've said, we're all just fans and audience in the end however much we know about the rules and system. There is no need for us to think like a judge...or rather say, judges are the ones who can only 'think' about how a perfromance was, while we are able to 'feel' something from them. So when what we felt has not been reflected in the results, everyone has all the right in the world to say he/she thought whichever skater was overscored or underscored without 'any evidence to support it', cause there are no such things as 'evidence' for emotions. If you think that the judges' scores are 'evidence' for any debate amongst fans in this sport, you really should become a judge yourself instead of trying to convince a stupid fan like me to agree and thank you for enlightening me, cause it's never going to happen. And since you're so good at analyzing scores, why are you spending your time dealing with dummies like me here, rather than arguing or debating with other 'pro-level' fans like you in ISU discussion board? I can understand you analyzing Maos' scores, cause that's a big concern to us all I suppose, but do you really have to do that here on other skaters? I've always appreciated your analysis on Maos' scores, and I'm not lying when I say so. But when you start to do the same with other skaters, saying you feel that some of us who have different views from you are treating them 'unfair and un-warranted'...now that, pisses me off! As I've said before, this isn't a trial but a sport. Nobody is accusing any skater of doing anything wrong. Everyone is only posting how they felt about performances and scores, in which no exhibit of 'evidence' is necessary.

Lastly, when you say that...'whether you agree or disagree, I at least offer some factual evidence to back it up my claim opposed to so many people on "other" forum" keep repeating this skster is over-scored or that skater was "under-scored" routines', I can't help sensing a certain amount of arrogance in your attitude. Not everyone here can analyze every single factor of the scores like you, not everyone would want to even if they are capable of it, and the punchline is, nobody has to do so anyways. If accepting results based on scores is the way you prefer to enjoy this sport, fine go ahead. I have no problem with that. But you're not in a higher position than any others here, so what gives you the right to point out that those who've said they felt whichever skater was overscored or underscored weren't treating those skaters fairly? Saying however one felt about skating performances are not the same as bashing and nor is it unfair. Every person who sees a performance immediately becomes a part of the audience, hence they automatically have the right to feel and say anything about it. That's precisely the role all of us were meant to play in this sport cause it's an artistic performance as well. With a silent audience which simply listens to the scores and rankings, the skaters will have a lesser chance of overcoming their weak points, and this sport will never become any popular than it is now. My final words to you are that scores and rankings will eventually become forgotten in this sport. What people will remember though, are the sensations of how much they were moved by certain skaters' performances with or without mistakes. I have only been trying to let you know, that I am the type of fan who prefers to see the skaters who gave emotionally moving performances as such on the podium as much as possible. With the current system, I know it won't always work that way, and maybe any system won't be able to make that happen constantly either. But if I feel someone else should've been on the podium, even if at times it may not be Mao, I will go on trusting my impressions rather than the scores. That's my way of being just and fair towards the skaters, and I've learned to be like that from no other person but Mao. She is one stubborn person when it comes to believing and doing what she thinks she must do, even if costed her alot of medals she could've won in the past.

Now that I've said everything I wanted to say to you, even some rude and ironic things I thought would've been better to keep to myself before, and you too have announced that your former post will be your last one on this issue, let's both drop it here and not disturb the others anymore. As I've already said, I'm going to keep myself from posting in this forum unless I really feel I have to (like this time), so you probably won't be bothered by me in the future. I'm not going to finish this by saying stuff like 'Happy Holidays' to you, cause although I may be alot of other worse things, I'm no hypocrite. I'll just say...Enjoy the sport in the way you do, chao!

Star85, Ken, Dani-chan and everyone else who posted they're sorry to see me leave, thank you so much, I was very touched. But this forum seems to have changed more or less since my long absence, and I can't feel much comfort here as I used to. Maybe it was because we were mainly focusing on only Yuna up till around Olys as Maos' rival, but I don't recall so many arguments occuring on other skaters' scores back in those days (probably because I came back, huh?). Even if some of us had different opinions on other skaters, we'd just post those different feelings, leave it behind and just went on cheering for Mao. Plus back then alot of the members who are gone now had so much humor, this was such a fun place to be in; I can never forget how much fun we had in that 'which skater do you want to marry' thread, and even when we had that horrible troll who was using Rachael Fs' photo for his avatar troubling us, we got together using our humor to succeed in making him leave (special thanks to our dedicated Mod ☆Genie!). Even though mingming and hanatsuki are gone, you guys will still have linglang who'll kindly update you on Mao news within Jpn so I'm sure you won't be missing anything important. I loved helping out on all the projects we did for Mao together, too. If you should need me in future projects, I'm still willing to help out. But I'm kind of through with posting much here anymore...but I'll still be in the FB group so I'll be in touch with most of you there. Yep!

ETA:
klarification wrote:
Also, I would just like to say that I appreciate all voices here in Mao forum because it makes me feel that we are a very open community. So please, let's not fight! We can disagree all we want but at the end of the day, it's our love for Mao that keeps us together.

Sorry klarification, but I am not the kind of person to just back off when someone is obviously writing stuff to make me look bad. I've made my choice to post what I felt was needed to be said, I'm sure I'm no longer popular nor respectful since I did that, but frankly I don't care how people think of me when I'm in the middle of a debate/argument/fight (whichever word you prefer). I know that sometimes I have to sacrifice alot of things when I have to speak out honestly, and I'm sacrificing my presense here, for making you and the others be disturbed by my words. So, once again, in a slightly different way, I really am sorry for all the trouble I've caused. It won't happen again.

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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:10 am

Kayo, Sad Bawling Don't leave us, please! You're loved here so much, and everyone respect you. I hope you will change your mind and post here with us Depressed Crying
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:32 am

pochinko I understand your view just as i understand fg8... view. The thing is this is a sport where the numbers just can't be ignored, because they are the deciding factor and sometimes a detailed analysis is needed to give a more clear picture of each performance , ofcourse that doesn't mean that the emotional factor will or should be ignored, but no matter what the outcome is, a great performance will always be remembered and appreciated. I too prefered rika hongo a lot more then satoko, but i still appreciated getting a detailed analysis of why satoko scored better then her.

the emotional part will always be there just as the scoring will always be there too, and we as Mao fans are probably the ones who understand this the most, how often in the past weren't we just spellbound by Mao's skating and felt that the scores she received didn't reflect that, the fact that most of us became hardcore fans of Mao after the first performance we saw of her says alot about the strong impression and the emotional factor a skater gives the audience, and this applies to every other skater too. it's just that sometimes even if there is a big consensus of who the audience preferred or was mostly moved by, we have to look and analyze to understand and thereby make peace with the outcome, through that will never change or remove the amazing performances the skater gave (in this case rika and akiko)

the emotional part and the scores are just inseparable factors that will always be there at every competition, and i think it's very healthy to look and discuss both perspectives!








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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:29 am

ballerinamao wrote:
The thing is this is a sport where the numbers just can't be ignored
In CoP the numbers can be too easily manipulated. It's not the same numbers as who ran faster or jumped higher like in track and field. That's the point. I agree with Pochi on CoP, especially the part about the audience and ISU 'relationships' Very Mad
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:57 am

let`s talk wrote:
ballerinamao wrote:
The thing is this is a sport where the numbers just can't be ignored
In CoP the numbers can be too easily manipulated. It's not the same numbers as who ran faster or jumped higher like in track and field. That's the point. I agree with Pochi on CoP, especially the part about the audience and ISU 'relationships' Very Mad


No one is saying otherwise, but the issue here is that the emotional part meaning the performance will always remain no matter what the final outcome may be, it's just that the emotional impact can't be measured, and therefor can't be a factor. Figure skating is a complicated sport and nothing is ever going change that (except if they suddenly made it less subjective by foreksempel reducing the goe which is where the subjectivity mostly comes from, since the audience can't see nor guess if the judges gave -1 or 3 )

anyway what I'm trying to say is that both the emotional impact and the scores will always be there, they are inseparable, the difference between them is merely that one part can be measured while the other can't, and I'm not trying to say that there is no subjectivity because we all know there is plenty of it in the scores! i'm only saying that both parts are important and both perspective will be there at each and every competition! and no matter if we like or not in the end the scores are the deciding factor, which is why it's natural to look and discuss the little details!










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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:46 am

IMO, Satoko's Bronze was fair and well deserved. Her jumps can look small, but so tiny she is.
Rika has no grace, no way she could win a medal.
And Akiko as much as I love her, she can only blame her nerves and bombing LP. Being inconsistent doesn't help to increase her PCS either.

Thanks to God, mostly I agree with the judgment. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:39 pm

PochinkoPotanko wrote:
PochinkoPotanko wrote:
I think I'll just go on supporting Mao mainly in some other places from now on. I'll try not to post stuff that may disturb you guys here. I'll come and read sometimes, but I won't post unless I really feel I need to do so...sorry for being such an ass more or less this season.

Okay, now I really feel that way, so I'm back again.

fgr8sktrfn wrote:

well no offense,but the reason I brought up Skate Canada and NHK , especially your claim is that Akiko was a clear winner over Mao based on her Free Skate?
your biggest complaint I recall and you stated here again that mis-application of PCS scoring. if that was your argument then how do you explain how Akiko was "generously" scored in this competition?
this is how Akiko was scored at the 2012 NHK(perhaps, her best LP performance this season).
NHK.....................Japan Nats
SS..7.82...............8.05
TR..7.39...............7.65
P/E.7.93...............7.60
CH..7.86...............8.00
IN...7.82................7.95 a bit generous?

Oh, so that's what this is all about, huh? No offense? Merry Christmas? Happy Holidays? Cut the 'all you need is love' crap! I've been crappy as well, but since this is really going to be my last post on this matter, this time I'm going to be totally honest with you. If my memory's correct, I remember posting that I made too much a big deal about the NHK results, decided not to mention anything about that competition again, and afterwards I didn't. I tried the best I can to stick to giving infos from within my country here on Mao, cause I thought that was the least I can do to make eveyone feel happy and look forward to Maos' future, however they thought about that NHK matter. Alot of members wanted the NHK matter to be left behind so we can move on supporting Mao, but you brought it back, and I am quite cross about that.

I thought we were all merely expressing our thoughts about Nats as usual, but then you had to bring out NHK again, cause you obviously seem to be biased about me on my impressions on that one competition, which me and all my Jpnse fan pals had to take alot of time and effort to make peace with. We've all analyzed the rules and the scores just like you, and we concluded Maos' win was fair. But we did and still do keep in mind that Akikos' FP in NHK moved us more than Maos' FP and SP; which meant alot to us, so much that we felt strongly once again that there still are problems in the CoP system. We did not start to ask questions about the current system since NHK though, we've been doing that over and over eversince we started our forum; we translated almost everything written on the rules in the ISU site, and we've discussed many issues from as many different points of views as we can. But we do not put much weight on how and why the judges scored as they did. We put more weight on how we would've scored performances according to the rules. We're still probabaly steps way back from you on understanding how the system works, but we think we're entitled to do so because we most of us have been fans of the sport for a very long time now, and we believe that the tech callers and judges cannot always be trusted. They're human afterall, so they do misjudge sometimes as you must already know.

Quote :
I really did not want to do this but this is how these tech. panels and the judges evaluated Akiko's LP performance at the 2012 Japan Nationals.
singled 3flip into a 1flip/2toe/2lo (2lo is clearly under-rotated by more than 1/4 turn and they could easily gave her "<" or even "<<"
2a/3t......3toe is under rotated "<"
3lz.........3lz is under rotated "<" with a wrong edge "e"
3f..........fall, automatic -3 GoE(madatory deductions)
3lo/2t.....very tight landing on 3lo......0 GoE
3s.........only clean landing......0.56 + GoE
2a......another very tight landing...could easily received "<"...0 GoE
out of 7 jumping passes...1 clean landing
......................................1 fall
......................................2 under rotations
......................................1 edge call
......................................1 popped jump
.......................................2 shaky landing
yet Akiko deserved higher P/E(performance execution) than Satoko who only made a 1 mistake(3lo "<<").....7.60...to 7.05 ? is this fair to you?
didn't a fall on 3flip disrupt her choreography , performance/execution and interpretation?
furthermore, Satoko had many more transitonal moves(footwork transitions and skating move transitions) than Akiko but she received lower transition score than Akiko?
Akiko(7.65) to Satoko (6.85) is this fair to you?


If you didn't want to do it, then you shouldn't have bothered to! You're just making it look like I pushed you into pointing out Akikos' mistakes, while I've said over and over that I'm totally aware of it.

Quote :
I said I am not try to convinve anyone to prove my point but these are "actual" scoring(protocols) prvided by Japanese Tech. Panels's assesment and Judges at this competition. you have every right to believe or disregard it however you feel.

Really? Are you sure? It seems alot to me like you are going through a hell of alot of protocol analysis and teaching us about skating elements at the same time. I can't imagine why you'd want to do that unless you wanted us to be convinced by all your views. But hey wait a sec...no, you're just trying to make us accept the judges' views not yours. And I guess, that's the part I have a problem with cause I basically don't care that much about the scorings. I don't care because I'm no judge so I prefer to stick to what I've only felt from performances as a mere fan of the sport in the audience. I totally believe that that's just about all that fans should be doing in the first place. We're not the skaters in the competitions, nor are we judges. But as a fan, I think there are roles which we should stick to rather than comparing protocols over and over. My opinion is that the audience should keep away a bit from the scorings and appeal to the judges and the skaters how we felt about their performances as appreciators. If that's not so, they shouldn't score anything like PE, cause there wouldn't be anybody to feel something from performances and emphathize with the skaters. The judges IMO can never play the role of the audience. They're too busy watching just the skills and putting them into numbers during a performance. When they're done with that then they go on to scoring PCS, in which I highly doubt they have the ability to do it correctly after watching a performance focusing mainly on handing out GOEs. Figure skating performances are not just a load of amazing skills, but are also works of art as well. And art can never be put into numbers; the judges have to do so cause it's a competing event, but I find it rather absurd. Do you know how many long hours of debate the judges at Festival de Cannes go through to choose the right film to give the Palm d'Or to? I perfectly understand the unfortunate fact that figure skating judges do not have enough time like them, but I still think that's the true proper way they should be doing it if they could. And during such film festival judgings, they take alot of consideration on how the audience accepted the nominated films. No film ever wins even if its' skills are perfect, unless the audience truely appreciates them, cause theoretically there's no film in existance without anybody watching it. I think the same can be said about skating performances, too. That's why I will not accept being convinced by the judges nor anyone who seems to speak on behalf of them like you, if I do not agree with what they say. I acknowledge myself as one of the audience, and so I believe I have a different role to play.

Quote :
my original posting regrad to Satoko Miyahara was based on what I obseved and re-watching the performances again on you tube with full analysis based to the "protocols" giving at this competition.
I really don't have a dog in this debate either way but I felt some of comments directed towards Satoko was unfair and un-warranted without any "fact" to support their argument(such as Satoko was "over scored" or someone else should scored higher without any evidence to support it).
I am not going to comment on Rina Hongo. I have said in my previous post.
in my opinion,if Akiko was "unfairly under-scored" at the 2012 NHK then she was very "generously" scored here at the 2012 Japan Nationals, especially in the PCS.
whether you agree or disagree, I at least offer some factual evidence to back it up my claim opposed to so many people on "other" forum" keep repeating this skster is over-scored or that skater was "under-scored" routines.

First of all, you can never see the whole picture by just watching YT vids over and over. It's always harder to make out how the audience was reacting to a performance or score, compared to being at the stadium or watching it on a larger tv screen. Plus, in those Jpnse tv broadcast vids they usually edit the sounds of the audience lower than it actually was. So you probabaly got everything right about the skills in a performance, but I can't say the same when it comes to whether you got a proper grasp of how the audience felt about it. There are these 'special somethings' (some seem to call it the 'it' factor) which those who share the same air in the stadium can sense in a skaters' performance. I know that from experience so I try to pay attention to the audience to try to understand what they're feeling as much as I can. The 'special somethings' cannot be seen, heard or touched that clearly, so it may not stand out as 'facts' or 'evidence' to you, but I think it's as important as scores; maybe sometimes more important than scores.

Secondly, nobody has to give detailed 'facts' on how they felt about a performance at all. The only true 'facts' for the audience and fans are what they solely felt from a performance; definitely not the numbers the judges calculated and labelled on them. Nobody has to take in consideration how the judges scored a performance unless they are up to it. Why? Because as I've said, we're all just fans and audience in the end however much we know about the rules and system. There is no need for us to think like a judge...or rather say, judges are the ones who can only 'think' about how a perfromance was, while we are able to 'feel' something from them. So when what we felt has not been reflected in the results, everyone has all the right in the world to say he/she thought whichever skater was overscored or underscored without 'any evidence to support it', cause there are no such things as 'evidence' for emotions. If you think that the judges' scores are 'evidence' for any debate amongst fans in this sport, you really should become a judge yourself instead of trying to convince a stupid fan like me to agree and thank you for enlightening me, cause it's never going to happen. And since you're so good at analyzing scores, why are you spending your time dealing with dummies like me here, rather than arguing or debating with other 'pro-level' fans like you in ISU discussion board? I can understand you analyzing Maos' scores, cause that's a big concern to us all I suppose, but do you really have to do that here on other skaters? I've always appreciated your analysis on Maos' scores, and I'm not lying when I say so. But when you start to do the same with other skaters, saying you feel that some of us who have different views from you are treating them 'unfair and un-warranted'...now that, pisses me off! As I've said before, this isn't a trial but a sport. Nobody is accusing any skater of doing anything wrong. Everyone is only posting how they felt about performances and scores, in which no exhibit of 'evidence' is necessary.

Lastly, when you say that...'whether you agree or disagree, I at least offer some factual evidence to back it up my claim opposed to so many people on "other" forum" keep repeating this skster is over-scored or that skater was "under-scored" routines', I can't help sensing a certain amount of arrogance in your attitude. Not everyone here can analyze every single factor of the scores like you, not everyone would want to even if they are capable of it, and the punchline is, nobody has to do so anyways. If accepting results based on scores is the way you prefer to enjoy this sport, fine go ahead. I have no problem with that. But you're not in a higher position than any others here, so what gives you the right to point out that those who've said they felt whichever skater was overscored or underscored weren't treating those skaters fairly? Saying however one felt about skating performances are not the same as bashing and nor is it unfair. Every person who sees a performance immediately becomes a part of the audience, hence they automatically have the right to feel and say anything about it. That's precisely the role all of us were meant to play in this sport cause it's an artistic performance as well. With a silent audience which simply listens to the scores and rankings, the skaters will have a lesser chance of overcoming their weak points, and this sport will never become any popular than it is now. My final words to you are that scores and rankings will eventually become forgotten in this sport. What people will remember though, are the sensations of how much they were moved by certain skaters' performances with or without mistakes. I have only been trying to let you know, that I am the type of fan who prefers to see the skaters who gave emotionally moving performances as such on the podium as much as possible. With the current system, I know it won't always work that way, and maybe any system won't be able to make that happen constantly either. But if I feel someone else should've been on the podium, even if at times it may not be Mao, I will go on trusting my impressions rather than the scores. That's my way of being just and fair towards the skaters, and I've learned to be like that from no other person but Mao. She is one stubborn person when it comes to believing and doing what she thinks she must do, even if costed her alot of medals she could've won in the past.

Now that I've said everything I wanted to say to you, even some rude and ironic things I thought would've been better to keep to myself before, and you too have announced that your former post will be your last one on this issue, let's both drop it here and not disturb the others anymore. As I've already said, I'm going to keep myself from posting in this forum unless I really feel I have to (like this time), so you probably won't be bothered by me in the future. I'm not going to finish this by saying stuff like 'Happy Holidays' to you, cause although I may be alot of other worse things, I'm no hypocrite. I'll just say...Enjoy the sport in the way you do, chao!

Star85, Ken, Dani-chan and everyone else who posted they're sorry to see me leave, thank you so much, I was very touched. But this forum seems to have changed more or less since my long absence, and I can't feel much comfort here as I used to. Maybe it was because we were mainly focusing on only Yuna up till around Olys as Maos' rival, but I don't recall so many arguments occuring on other skaters' scores back in those days (probably because I came back, huh?). Even if some of us had different opinions on other skaters, we'd just post those different feelings, leave it behind and just went on cheering for Mao. Plus back then alot of the members who are gone now had so much humor, this was such a fun place to be in; I can never forget how much fun we had in that 'which skater do you want to marry' thread, and even when we had that horrible troll who was using Rachael Fs' photo for his avatar troubling us, we got together using our humor to succeed in making him leave (special thanks to our dedicated Mod ☆Genie!). Even though mingming and hanatsuki are gone, you guys will still have linglang who'll kindly update you on Mao news within Jpn so I'm sure you won't be missing anything important. I loved helping out on all the projects we did for Mao together, too. If you should need me in future projects, I'm still willing to help out. But I'm kind of through with posting much here anymore...but I'll still be in the FB group so I'll be in touch with most of you there. Yep!

ETA:
klarification wrote:
Also, I would just like to say that I appreciate all voices here in Mao forum because it makes me feel that we are a very open community. So please, let's not fight! We can disagree all we want but at the end of the day, it's our love for Mao that keeps us together.

Sorry klarification, but I am not the kind of person to just back off when someone is obviously writing stuff to make me look bad. I've made my choice to post what I felt was needed to be said, I'm sure I'm no longer popular nor respectful since I did that, but frankly I don't care how people think of me when I'm in the middle of a debate/argument/fight (whichever word you prefer). I know that sometimes I have to sacrifice alot of things when I have to speak out honestly, and I'm sacrificing my presense here, for making you and the others be disturbed by my words. So, once again, in a slightly different way, I really am sorry for all the trouble I've caused. It won't happen again.

Dear Pochi:

I'm in love of figure skating since I was a child, when I watched a movie about Okasana Bauil, thanks God i can watch that movie in Perú, a country where only few people practice sports and the favorite sport is soccer, no matter how bad we are in it. Then, when internet became massive in Perú (2000) I discovered Shizuka Arakawa, I was deeply moved by her skating, strong but elegance and beautiful at the same time, she is a great atlete and a lady, I admire her so much. Some day in 2007, looking more videos about Shizuka Arakawa, I discovered Mao, I watched her "Fantasie For Violin And Orchestra" and suddenly everything stop, it was the most beautiful thing in the world for me, since that moment I'm a hardcore fan of Mao, sometimes I want to kill some people in Golden Skate (OGM; PLEASE, FORGIVE MY BAD FEELINGS), people who loves to count the "clean" jumps of Mao, people who think that artistitry is the same that pose sexi, like femme fatale, ect., etc., etc..............When Mao made the mistakes in her FS at Vancouver, I feel really sad and depress for a lot of days. Then, in March, I found this forum, for months I just read what you and other members said, just reading the posts and learning about figure skating from you and other kind members, like polosatik, ballerina, inskate, star85, tiranishu, roma, shikure, etc., because my English is not good and takes me a lot of time to write something understandable. But when the Mao Video Birthday Project started, I couldn't resist, I really wanted to be part of that, so I decided to became a member of this forum. The project was a really nice experience for me, I meet a lot of kind people, from different countrys, with one purpose, exppresed our love to Mao, the atlete and the human being.

One of the things that made my expereince in this forum satisfactory here, is to meet and discuss whit someone like you, Kayo, I'm always read your posts, always kind, interesting and usefull, you are a very dedicated fan of Mao and an honorable and kind human being, I don't need to know you personally to know that, I really will miss you here, thank so much for everything you give to this forum and for your unconditional support to Mao.

Please, remember, that you are so much love here, and everyone respect you, like Polosatik said. I'm sad not only for me and the other members, but also for the new fans that will fall in love with Mao's skating and will come here looking for information about her. We will wait for you =)

Sorry to the other members and readers for my long post.
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helen91
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:20 pm

holy moly, just came back to check for updates and boy are these posts
getting longer and longer... and there seems to be some tension here?

We all love Mao and the point of this forum is simply to show our support for her yes? I love to pretend that I'm a judge at times too, but in reality, I'm not and all I can do as a fan is accept the marks that pop up. I don't think I've ever seen a skater head into a competition with the intent of not trying their best (aside from Yuna at 2010 worlds but I'm going to ignore that skate) so if trying their best is what they did, I can only be happy for their efforts. Can't ask of a skater what they can't even ask of themselves.

<-- Let's be like this yes?


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chiyori
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:09 pm

helen91 wrote:
holy moly, just can back to check for updates and boy are these posts
getting longer and longer... and there seems to be some tension here?

We all love Mao and the point of this forum is simply to show our support for her yes? I love to pretend that I'm a judge at times too, but in reality, I'm not and all I can do as a fan is accept the marks that pop up. I don't think I've ever seen a skater head into a competition with the intent of not trying their best (aside from Yuna at 2010 worlds but I'm going to ignore that skate) so if trying their best is what they did, I can only be happy for their efforts. Can't ask of a skater what they can't even ask of themselves.

<-- Let's be like this yes?

Agreed! Yep!
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silenceisgolden
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PostSubject: Re: Japan Nationals   Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:16 am

The below short clip is for those who would like to see Mao with her hair down. Wink

The poster of this video says that Mao went back to the girl to hand her
the Santa Claus hat after signing an autograph on it at the entrance of the rink.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr69nwPRF3s
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