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Star85
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PostSubject: Judging issues   Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:06 am

So there's a lot of debate and conspiracy right now over judging. What do you guys feel the biggest problems are? Do you think it has more to do with the judges themselves? The ISU, federations, and politics? The scoring system? A combination of all the above? What do you think should be done about it? I know we've discussed these issues, but I think it might be worthwhile to see a collective perspective from everyone in one place. Especially after recent events. I've been thinking about this all more than ever the last few days, and it's really bothering me. I'm angry. I'm frustrated. I'm worried.

I have plenty to say about this, but for now, please share your thoughts Neutral

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PostSubject: Re: Judging issues   Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:49 am

I've got alot to say about this topic, but I'll try to keep it short as I can...

1.All judgings should be done by ISU judges and tech-panelists even for national competitions. This way each country can get an idea of how their skaters may be scored in an Intl competition, and it'll be difficult for Feds to set up the results before any national competition.

2.All ISU judges and tech-panelists should be formally employed by ISU, and should be checked whether they're judgements and scorings are fair or not in each competition. In other words tech-panelists and judges should be judged too if they're doing their jobs right, and if a judge is found guilty of not doing it right, he/she should have their salary cut or be fired.

3.All ISU tech-panelists and judges should be totally untouchable. They should not be allowed to have any relationships whatsoever with skaters, coaches, choreographers, not to mention Feds and sponsers for the sport. (This will keep fans from wanting to become tech-panelists or judges. Being a tech-panelist or a judge should be a professional occupation, not some voluntary act of a fan who just wants to travel abroad free, meet his/her favorite skaters and see competitions in the best seats!)

4.They should have a different set of judges for scoring TES and PCS. (I find it impossible for anyone to see a performance on the whole while they're scoring GOEs. Having judges for PCS only will make it easier for them to focus on all the components while watching a performance without being bothered by judging GOEs. In addition to that, specialized PCS judges can and should keep in mind how the audience has/had reacted to a performance and reflect that to PCS more or less. They should acknowledge themselves not as professional PCS judges, but as representatives of the audience as well.)

5.All judges should be strictly noted that they should score skaters on an absolute scale in GOE and PCS, and should never score skaters by comparing them to how others have done, or how a same skater has done in the past. If the judges are well trained to score in this way, there should be no huge gaps in GOE and PCS.

6.They should have more strict deductions for falls, hands touching the ice on landings, and step outs. Any visible mistakes which should ruin the appreciation of a performance should cost the skaters more seriously than mistakes which are not as visible such as URs and edge calls. Figure skating is not just a sport but a performance intended to give pleasure to those who watch it. The deductions for mistakes should be set accordingly to that fact.

7.Tech-panelists should go over every jump in slow motion after a performance is over and judge rotations and edges after the GOEs have been given by TES judges. They should deduct scores for all URs, DGs and wrong edges with the rate being set beforehand like fall deductions. In this way, no skater would have to suffer too much -GOEs in addition to UR, DG, wronge edge deductions (which I think is too much). Also, in this way, we can avoid having tech-panelists misjugding a jump at first sight. If we do it in this order, it will take more time for the scores to come out, yes. However, if they introduce my suggetion no.4, TES and PCS can be scored more swiftly, that should give more time for tech-panelists to do their job cautiously.

8.The number of sponsers for an Intl competition per country should be fairly limited. (Yes, I do not mind most of the Jpnse sponsers being kicked out; in that way at least nobody would ever accuse Mao or anyother Jpnse skater winning because of 'Jpnse money'. Plus I hate the fact that alot of companies start sponsering the sport only before Olys.) In addition, I personally think it would be great to get their ugly promotion logos off the rinkside! Allowing them to have their commercials shown during tv broadcasts of competitions should be enough for them to benefit from IMO.

I thought at first that the rules of CoP should be changed more dramatically, but after thinking it over, I felt that if the judges and ISU's attitude towards the sport doesn't change, they'll go on finding a way to get the results they want in the end without violating the rules no matter how we change them. I think we need to have the ISU reconsider how the judges should be more than anything. The huge gaps between GOE and PCS already proves that they some of them are definitely not being objective. But do they do not get punished for that do they? And however much people in the audience boo at unfair scores, they'll never change them or admit they were wrong. I think we need a totally new set of judges to start with. Judges who are untouchable, even by the ISU or any Fed not to mention sponsers. They need not be a fan of any skater also. The volunteer judge system they have now has allowed fans of the sport to become judges, and I'm certain they all have their favorite skaters or skaters from their countries they tend to score highly than they should at times. In a nutshell they should lower the privileges of being a judge; no more partying, taking photos together, nor becoming friends with any skater, coach nor choreographers. In that way I think we can get better people who only want justice in the sport to become judges.

I know all of what I wrote will probably never happen, but I truely believe the sport will become better and we'll have more satisfied fans after a competition if they'd make changes like this. More than anything we need clean judges, and no more tech-panelists making mistakes. If they aren't going to make such changes, I think they should have some company create a computer program which does the judgings automatically. Such a program would be difficult to create right now, but in 1 or 2 decades, I think it'll be technologically possible. Hey, it's also worth it when you think about how much ISU and Feds can save on paying for transportation and accomodation fees for doubtful anonymous judges! Rolling Eyes

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PostSubject: Re: Judging issues   Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:47 pm

I agree with you Pochi. The only problem with making many of these changes with the judging is that it will be more expensive. They are already making cutbacks (sending less skaters to competitions, etc.), so I imagine their budget is shrinking. However, judging is not an area they can be skimping on. Judging is in need of critical attention, and ISU needs to find the money for this somehow, unless they can come up with better, less expensive, yet equally as efficient ideas. Judging should be one of their main priorities. If they can't afford to keep things running efficiently, then maybe federation's should be picking up more slack. I know most of them aren't exactly rolling in doe either, but if this is what it takes, they need to work out some sort of arrangement.

I also agree with you about the DGs and deductions. For a long time, I thought a hands down didn't lose as many points as a fall. I don't think it should. I think a fall should cost the skater more points. That way, someone who falls say, two times in their program doesn't win over someone who say, got dinged a few times for URs, wrong edges, etc. I also think the judges should be mostly on the same page for GOES, especially when they are negative. With changes like the ones you suggested Pochi, there would be a big improvement there.

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PostSubject: Re: Judging issues   Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:24 am

What are the criteria for becoming a judge/technical panelist, I wonder? I find it much harder to understand the judging system in figure skating than gymnastics (not that I really understand the latter, btw). I know a

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PostSubject: Re: Judging issues   Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:36 pm

pearlyriver wrote:
What are the criteria for becoming a judge/technical panelist, I wonder? I find it much harder to understand the judging system in figure skating than gymnastics (not that I really understand the latter, btw). I know a

I've read that you have to take lessons which the Feds provide, and then you go on to taking an exam. If you pass you can be a judge. But that's only the case for Fed judges. I assume you need to stack up experience as a Fed judge in your country first to become an official ISU judge...but I'm not completely sure about that. I've also heard that even if you become a qualified Fed judge, you'll have to start by judging novice or juniors, and it's a long way to become a judge even for Nats. All this is based on info on how to become a judge in Jpn btw.

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PostSubject: Re: Judging issues   Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:27 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Judging issues   Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:20 pm

Alokya wrote:
Regarding this...

http://figureskate.wordpress.com/2010/03/08/patrick-ibens-interview/

Thank you for this Alokya! This is something every skating fan should read - and I hope they do. If you are as frustrated about the judging as I am, you should find this really informative and insightful. I could probably comment on every q&a in this interview - but that would take forever! Plus I don't think any would really care about reading a whole page of my comments. Who am I anyway? lol

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PostSubject: Re: Judging issues   Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:26 pm

Star85 wrote:
Alokya wrote:
Regarding this...

http://figureskate.wordpress.com/2010/03/08/patrick-ibens-interview/

Thank you for this Alokya! This is something every skating fan should read - and I hope they do. If you are as frustrated about the judging as I am, you should find this really informative and insightful. I could probably comment on every q&a in this interview - but that would take forever! Plus I don't think any would really care about reading a whole page of my comments. Who am I anyway? lol

Go for it. Why not? We all respect and value our thoughts here, and I think we could have a really good discussion about your talking points.
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PostSubject: Re: Judging issues   Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:41 am

Alokya wrote:
Star85 wrote:
Alokya wrote:
Regarding this...

http://figureskate.wordpress.com/2010/03/08/patrick-ibens-interview/

Thank you for this Alokya! This is something every skating fan should read - and I hope they do. If you are as frustrated about the judging as I am, you should find this really informative and insightful. I could probably comment on every q&a in this interview - but that would take forever! Plus I don't think any would really care about reading a whole page of my comments. Who am I anyway? lol

Go for it. Why not? We all respect and value our thoughts here, and I think we could have a really good discussion about your talking points.

I agree with Alokya, Star85, go for it!

I love reading posts from other memebrs who are knowledgeble about this confusion that's called COP, since I'm almost always left wondering why were the skaters scored the way they were. Whirly Embarassed
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PostSubject: Re: Judging issues   Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:26 pm

Regarding judging, Part I of an interview with judge Chuck Foster - he was also head of USFSA for a time and was on the USOC. Interesting perspectives. If you want a transcript, PM me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMSp_QCQoZk
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PostSubject: Re: Judging issues   Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:34 pm

Star85 wrote:
Alokya wrote:
Regarding this...

http://figureskate.wordpress.com/2010/03/08/patrick-ibens-interview/

Thank you for this Alokya! This is something every skating fan should read - and I hope they do. If you are as frustrated about the judging as I am, you should find this really informative and insightful. I could probably comment on every q&a in this interview - but that would take forever! Plus I don't think any would really care about reading a whole page of my comments. Who am I anyway? lol

Oh, please don't say that Star85...I wrote a whole bunch of ideas about how things should be changed on the sport already. I thought everyone would be more willing to share their ideas, but nobody has so far and I already feel like an idiot being the only one who did so. Embarassed

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PostSubject: Re: Judging issues   Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:08 pm

PochinkoPotanko wrote:
Star85 wrote:
Alokya wrote:
Regarding this...

http://figureskate.wordpress.com/2010/03/08/patrick-ibens-interview/

Thank you for this Alokya! This is something every skating fan should read - and I hope they do. If you are as frustrated about the judging as I am, you should find this really informative and insightful. I could probably comment on every q&a in this interview - but that would take forever! Plus I don't think any would really care about reading a whole page of my comments. Who am I anyway? lol

Oh, please don't say that Star85...I wrote a whole bunch of ideas about how things should be changed on the sport already. I thought everyone would be more willing to share their ideas, but nobody has so far and I already feel like an idiot being the only one who did so. Embarassed

Lol, well the main reason I'm not doing it is cause it would take too long. I would have a comment for just about every Q&A in the entire interview, and that interview was LONG. I will have to go back over it sometime and maybe just pick and choose a few of my more significant comments. Not just "Omg I totally agree when he said Commentator " Or " Commentator pisses me off so much!" I sometimes ramble on about stuff that's totally insignificant and uninteresting. lol.

I thought more people would want to share their ideas too (hence the reason I created this thread lol). You have really knowledgeable, insightful things to say. Much more than me. Your long, interesting posts are really appreciated in the forum. I'm still trying to catch up to a lot of the members here on my knowledge of the sport. I've come a long ways, but I still have far to go too.

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PostSubject: Re: Judging issues   Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:09 am

If it's too long, we can discuss one post at a time. No big deal. Go for it, seriously!
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PostSubject: Re: Judging issues   Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:15 am

Here's an interesting interview on Tom Dickson...

http://everythingfigureskating.com/members/blog/2013/02/20/interview-with-tom-dickson/

Esp the part:

Quote :
EFS: How do you see skating evolving in the next 10 years? Do you think the IJS scoring system will still be used or do you think another change will be implemented after the Sochi Olympic Games? What would you like to see as an “ideal” scoring system/platform?

TD: I feel the skeleton of the current system is not bad. The program components descriptions are excellent. The problem lies in the judges ability to understand these components eloquently enough to judge varying levels of artistic, musical and choreographical proficiency. Right now the education of the judges does not match the intellectualism of the the program components themselves. I would like to see judges earn specific diplomas for each program component. For example maybe there would be skating skill judges who are experts in skating. Choreography judging might best be left to dancers. I also feel there should be a musicality component. The best people to judge this would be musicians. Musicality to me is pretty cut and dry…either you’re with the music or you’re not….whom better to understand this than people who actually are educated in music theory, music history and performance?

This kind of opinion was something that's been said in the past by lots of members in our Jpnse forum. We were all kind of happy to hear this from Tom. I've always thought it was kind of absurd to have judges whom most probabaly never had studied art genres like music and dancing to score PCS. I definitely think judges should take certain lessons in art genres aside from skating judging lessons.

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PostSubject: Re: Judging issues   Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:41 am

8.The number of sponsers for an Intl competition per country should be fairly limited. (Yes, I do not mind most of the Jpnse sponsers being kicked out; in that way at least nobody would ever accuse Mao or anyother Jpnse skater winning because of 'Jpnse money'. Plus I hate the fact that alot of companies start sponsering the sport only before Olys.) In addition, I personally think it would be great to get their ugly promotion logos off the rinkside! Allowing them to have their commercials shown during tv broadcasts of competitions should be enough for them to benefit from IMO.

---> I absolutely agree with you. The media report too severely on Mao for Judging and JP sponsorship in my country. My countrymen don't know about scoring rules, and just atomatically repeats what media says. The skater herself has nothing to do with judging or sponsorship, though. My countrymen automatically think that there are so many JP Sponsors and why this is nothing to do with judging??? This makes it so much harder for Mao Fans like me to say 'Mao is an excellent skater.' (With a sigh) I concur that sponsorships must be limited, FOR SURE.


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PostSubject: Re: Judging issues   Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:54 am

I think the most we can hope for is a more balanced span of sponsors - such as allowing two from the US, two from Japan, two from South Korea, two from Canada, two from... etc. While the sport continues to decline, I don't see a shift away from sponsors, especially Japanese sponsors - they are kind of what is keeping the sport together at this point. It's sad, but money is money.
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PostSubject: Re: Judging issues   Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:54 am

PochinkoPotanko wrote:
pearlyriver wrote:
What are the criteria for becoming a judge/technical panelist, I wonder? I find it much harder to understand the judging system in figure skating than gymnastics (not that I really understand the latter, btw). I know a

I've read that you have to take lessons which the Feds provide, and then you go on to taking an exam. If you pass you can be a judge. But that's only the case for Fed judges. I assume you need to stack up experience as a Fed judge in your country first to become an official ISU judge...but I'm not completely sure about that. I've also heard that even if you become a qualified Fed judge, you'll have to start by judging novice or juniors, and it's a long way to become a judge even for Nats. All this is based on info on how to become a judge in Jpn btw.

Thank you for replying Pochinko. Sorry I can contribute any ideas here because I'm still relatively new to skating and I'm gradually learning from your opinions gradually. Don't worry, I've read all of your suggestions and appreciate them. I'd thought that the procedure of becoming a judge/technical panelist is harder than that. In gymnastics, there're many ex-gymnasts who become judges, so they are knowledgeable enough to score. I didn't know that the same judges score both TES and PCS. I think that asks too much from a human being's brain to objectively evaluate both TES and PCS at the same time.
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PostSubject: Re: Judging issues   Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:59 am

Alokya wrote:
I think the most we can hope for is a more balanced span of sponsors - such as allowing two from the US, two from Japan, two from South Korea, two from Canada, two from... etc. While the sport continues to decline, I don't see a shift away from sponsors, especially Japanese sponsors - they are kind of what is keeping the sport together at this point. It's sad, but money is money.

As far as I know, American's interest in skating has fallen significantly. So many American journalists complained about that on Twitter. Having a more balanced span of sponsors is ideal, but that possibility is unlikely.
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PostSubject: Re: Judging issues   Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:01 pm

I think having a balanced span of sponsors is a good idea but I dont think it will work. We see so many sponsors from Japan because figure skating is HUGE in Japan and the Japanese sponsors know that a sign on the rink will mean profit. For Example, American sponsors know that football or Soccer is more popular than figure skating so they will rather invest in football or soccer because the profit will be bigger.

As for the judging system, I think as a whole there needs to be less numbers. Too much math and the +/- GOE scale really needs to be fixed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!( I dont think you should even be given the full base value of a jump you fall on). If any one has saw the skating lessons review for the mens competition I agree that the sport is becoming all about edges on jumps and UR and it makes it hard for viewers to watch and enjoy.
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