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 Mao's triple Axel

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zarinaballerina
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PostSubject: Re: Mao's triple Axel   Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:35 am

pearlyriver wrote:
 while ago, I read to thread on GS or FS which discussed who would have won OGM had Sasha and Irina both skated clean. Interestingly, the concensus is that Shiz would still win, or she could come close to Irina, but Sasha would never win since her technical layout was inferior than the other two and her skating skills were also inferior and she didn't have any advantage over Shiz and Irina PCS-wise.

Sasha's jumps weren't good, neither was her use of egdes. The only wow factor she had, this is strictly IMO, was her flexibility. I also never understood all the praising she got for her "artistry". To me personally, all of her wow stuff that she did, (while looking great) wasn't so much because of her feeling the music, but it looked like she was trying to say: look at me, aren't I pretty and flexible... Again this is only my opinion.


And I'm really sorry for Caro, I hope she gets well soon.
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PostSubject: Re: Mao's triple Axel   Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:17 pm

zarinaballerina wrote:


Sasha's jumps weren't good, neither was her use of egdes. The only wow factor she had, this is strictly IMO, was her flexibility. I also never understood all the praising she got for her "artistry". To me personally, all of her wow stuff that she did, (while looking great) wasn't so much because of her feeling the music, but it looked like she was trying to say: look at me, aren't I pretty and flexible... Again this is only my opinion.

And I'm really sorry for Caro, I hope she gets well soon.

Oh Zarina, you said it exactly like some members on FS who discussed which skater is the most artistic. Interestingly, many of them vote for Joannie, Mao and Carol, who they deemed to be most "organic" and pure

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PostSubject: Re: Mao's triple Axel   Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:53 am

zarinaballerina wrote:
pearlyriver wrote:
 while ago, I read to thread on GS or FS which discussed who would have won OGM had Sasha and Irina both skated clean. Interestingly, the concensus is that Shiz would still win, or she could come close to Irina, but Sasha would never win since her technical layout was inferior than the other two and her skating skills were also inferior and she didn't have any advantage over Shiz and Irina PCS-wise.

Sasha's jumps weren't good, neither was her use of egdes. The only wow factor she had, this is strictly IMO, was her flexibility. I also never understood all the praising she got for her "artistry". To me personally, all of her wow stuff that she did, (while looking great) wasn't so much because of her feeling the music, but it looked like she was trying to say: look at me, aren't I pretty and flexible... Again this is only my opinion.


And I'm really sorry for Caro, I hope she gets well soon.
I agree with you about Sasha's technique,it wasn't good,especially her jumps. But I'm a fan of Sasha, there is something in her, presence maybe, yes sometimes it's too much. But I loved how she showed herself on the ice, and still it was natural, she wasn't pretending at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Mao's triple Axel   Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:50 pm

polosatik wrote:
zarinaballerina wrote:
pearlyriver wrote:
 while ago, I read to thread on GS or FS which discussed who would have won OGM had Sasha and Irina both skated clean. Interestingly, the concensus is that Shiz would still win, or she could come close to Irina, but Sasha would never win since her technical layout was inferior than the other two and her skating skills were also inferior and she didn't have any advantage over Shiz and Irina PCS-wise.

Sasha's jumps weren't good, neither was her use of egdes. The only wow factor she had, this is strictly IMO, was her flexibility. I also never understood all the praising she got for her "artistry". To me personally, all of her wow stuff that she did, (while looking great) wasn't so much because of her feeling the music, but it looked like she was trying to say: look at me, aren't I pretty and flexible... Again this is only my opinion.


And I'm really sorry for Caro, I hope she gets well soon.
I agree with you about Sasha's technique,it wasn't good,especially her jumps. But I'm a fan of Sasha, there is something in her, presence maybe, yes sometimes it's too much. But I loved how she showed herself on the ice, and still it was natural, she wasn't pretending at all.

I agree with Zarinaballerina regarding Sasha's technique and with Polosatik regarding her artistry. I think Sasha's jumps were quite problematic and this is why she was so inconsistent. Her lutz was blatantly flutzed, the change of edge was even distracting, it gave the impression that she was going to lose the control of the jump. And her triple flip was quite unstable too. As Zarina said, the use of edges was not great either (quite shallow most of the time), although she was overall pleasant to watch IMO.

She was quite artistic for me, but this is always difficult to explain. What does "being artistic" mean in figure skating? She skated passionately, had presence on the ice (this is a personal opinion) and her positions were good and beautiful. Some can call this fake, but this "fake artistry" is not so easy to achieve. I'd rather see this kind of artistry over robotic skaters with ugly positions and bad extension. But then, does flexibility and beautiful positions make an artistic skater? No, but it can help, or not, it depends. I think the key is to make your qualities make up for your weaknesses.

When I watch her 2004 worlds SP, 2006 Torino SP and 2004 Marshall's LP (Swan Lake) it's impossible for me to call her a non-artistic skater. Her spirals are still the best for me, and not only because of her flexibility, but for the overall extension, edge control and "something special" that I cannot describe properly (sorry  Embarassed ). However, I admit that I prefer Mao, Caro, Yuna and Michelle over Sasha, just to name a few, but every skater is different.

BTW, I think we could be talking forever about what an artistic skater is and never come to an agreement  lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Mao's triple Axel   Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:54 pm

I think, Sasha was the most sparkling skater Team USA had since Kwan! I mean, look at their team now! Can Ashley beat Sasha in that? Or Mirai, Rachel and whoever is there? I doubt.
Sasha wasnt perfect technically, but from me she would get the 6.0 for the 2nd mark!

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PostSubject: Re: Mao's triple Axel   Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:57 pm

polosatik wrote:

I agree with you about Sasha's technique,it wasn't good,especially her jumps. But I'm a fan of Sasha, there is something in her, presence maybe, yes sometimes it's too much. But I loved how she showed herself on the ice, and still it was natural, she wasn't pretending at all.

Sasha always looked beautiful, and her flexibility was great (not over the top, or gymnastic like) and she could really sell her programs. That being said, to me, many of her "poses" (don't really know how to explain this) looked like she was trying to show off. For example when she hit a spiral position, she knew she was great (and she really was), but it looked like: ta da, admire me. I don't know, it's just a feeling that I've got at that time.
My favourite performance of hers is R&J at Torino 06, where after the mistakes she really let go and just performed. And needles to say, I prefer Sasha's flexibility over Julia's contortion stuff, anyday.

Haidogirl wrote:
I think, Sasha was the most sparkling skater Team USA had since Kwan! I mean, look at their team now! Can Ashley beat Sasha in that? Or Mirai, Rachel and whoever is there? I doubt.

I agree, however IMO, had Mirai kept her act together after Vancouver, she could've rivaled Sasha in spark. She had everything, jumps, flexibilty, spins and lots of personality. Sadly, for wahtever reason she lost herself in the past 3 years.  Depressed Crying 

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PostSubject: Re: Mao's triple Axel   Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:48 pm

zarinaballerina wrote:


Sasha always looked  beautiful, and her flexibility was great (not over the top, or gymnastic like) and she could really sell her programs. That being said, to me, many of her "poses" (don't really know how to explain this) looked like she was trying to show off. For example when she hit a spiral position, she knew she was great (and she really was), but it looked like: ta da, admire me. I don't know, it's just a feeling that I've got at that time.
My favourite performance of hers is R&J at Torino 06, where after the mistakes she really let go and just performed. And needles to say, I prefer Sasha's flexibility over Julia's contortion stuff, anyday.


You nailed it, Zarina. I think part of the reason why Sasha often chokesd, aside from her poor techniques is that she wanted to win so badly that she lost concentration. Had she competed with the metanlityl of delivering the ultimate performance instead, things may have been different.
Does Julia have rhythmic gymnastics training? I think I read somewhere about that.

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PostSubject: Re: Mao's triple Axel   Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:02 am

pearlyriver wrote:
zarinaballerina wrote:


Sasha always looked  beautiful, and her flexibility was great (not over the top, or gymnastic like) and she could really sell her programs. That being said, to me, many of her "poses" (don't really know how to explain this) looked like she was trying to show off. For example when she hit a spiral position, she knew she was great (and she really was), but it looked like: ta da, admire me. I don't know, it's just a feeling that I've got at that time.
My favourite performance of hers is R&J at Torino 06, where after the mistakes she really let go and just performed. And needles to say, I prefer Sasha's flexibility over Julia's contortion stuff, anyday.


You nailed it, Zarina. I think part of the reason why Sasha often chokesd, aside from her poor techniques is that she wanted to win so badly that she lost concentration. Had she competed with the metanlityl of delivering the ultimate performance instead, things may have been different.
Does Julia have rhythmic gymnastics training? I think I read somewhere about that.

According to her coaches, her work ethics wasn't great either, so this also may have contributed to her chocking.

I don't know about Julia and rhytmic gymnastics, but she sure looks like she did train it. I wish she'd tone it down in her programs, sometimes she overdoes it to a point of looking ugly, IMO.
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PostSubject: Re: Mao's triple Axel   Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:55 am

zarinaballerina wrote:
polosatik wrote:

I agree with you about Sasha's technique,it wasn't good,especially her jumps. But I'm a fan of Sasha, there is something in her, presence maybe, yes sometimes it's too much. But I loved how she showed herself on the ice, and still it was natural, she wasn't pretending at all.

Sasha always looked  beautiful, and her flexibility was great (not over the top, or gymnastic like) and she could really sell her programs. That being said, to me, many of her "poses" (don't really know how to explain this) looked like she was trying to show off. For example when she hit a spiral position, she knew she was great (and she really was), but it looked like: ta da, admire me. I don't know, it's just a feeling that I've got at that time.
My favourite performance of hers is R&J at Torino 06, where after the mistakes she really let go and just performed. And needles to say, I prefer Sasha's flexibility over Julia's contortion stuff, anyday.


Well said! I can't accept this wow factor of Julia at all. Yes her spins are fast but positions looks a little bit ugly, I don't see any point in that. Especiall Ispin, Sasha has the best Ispin I've ever seen.
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PostSubject: Re: Mao's triple Axel   Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:40 am

polosatik wrote:
zarinaballerina wrote:


Sasha always looked  beautiful, and her flexibility was great (not over the top, or gymnastic like) and she could really sell her programs. That being said, to me, many of her "poses" (don't really know how to explain this) looked like she was trying to show off. For example when she hit a spiral position, she knew she was great (and she really was), but it looked like: ta da, admire me. I don't know, it's just a feeling that I've got at that time.
My favourite performance of hers is R&J at Torino 06, where after the mistakes she really let go and just performed. And needles to say, I prefer Sasha's flexibility over Julia's contortion stuff, anyday.


Well said! I can't accept this wow factor of Julia at all. Yes her spins are fast but positions looks a little bit ugly, I don't see any point in that. Especiall Ispin, Sasha has the best Ispin I've ever seen.

Completely agree, and it's a shame. I don't think I'll ever become Julia's fan, but she's improved so much during the summer and has such a beautiful (music) LP. I wish she'd tone down her flexibility and stop with those gymnastics transitions. Either hold a position longer and incorporate it into the story, or don't do it.

I think Sasha's forte was, that while she was very flexible, she was nowhere near Julia's flexibility, so her positions and spins were just right. They had a huge wow factor, but weren't over the top due to her limits. For example, she had gorgeous layback spin, but her Bielman was just OK. With Julia's rhytmic gymnastics, she just goes for it, and overdoes it to a point of looking ugly. Her I-spin is one of the ugliest I've ever seen.
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PostSubject: Re: Mao's triple Axel   Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:38 am

I think Sasha was more flexible that she showed it in her skating, but she knew how to do a correct and perfect position, at least I saw some her photos doing yoga and she is incredibly flexible, but she knew do not to exaggerate to get a good position and line.
However this year Julia or her team had been more careful in this aspect, if you remember the last year she did her contortions frequently through all her program, this year, for me, it was only in the correct moments. But yes, she should to work in her positions, mainly I spin.
I don´t think Sasha is superior in spins than Julia and vice versa, Sasha has better positions but Julia is faster .
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PostSubject: Re: Mao's triple Axel   Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:51 am

pearlyriver wrote:
Does Julia have rhythmic gymnastics training? I think I read somewhere about that.

Here's a 2011 article about Julia training in rhythmic gymnastics as a child. I think it's safe to say she focused on figure skating later on, but retained the carriage of a gymnast into skating, much like how Mao never let go of her ballet roots. Julia may not have the flow nor the maturity seen in Sasha's skating, but that's fine with me. I'd rather have Julia mature into her own skating in her own pace. She's improved after leaving Morozov's camp, IMO.

http://www.ifsmagazine.com/articles/474-girl-power-a-russian-uprising


.


On the topic of Mao's 3A being nitpicked by judges in contrast to men's 3As:

It bothers me too. The judges and tech controllers expect too much from Mao when it comes to her 3A. Iceriver's analysis is a good expansion on this. I still don't understand why this happens, especially when a certain tech controller is concerned. The entire notion (and the cyberwar about it) brings me to frustrated frenzy, given Mao's nonconformity by doing 3As when the rest are going for 3-3. Indeed, there is an inner strength in Mao because she endured when others, haters especially, to conform or cease to exist.

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PostSubject: Re: Mao's triple Axel   Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:19 am

Abdiel wrote:


Here's a 2011 article about Julia training in rhythmic gymnastics as a child. I think it's safe to say she focused on figure skating later on, but retained the carriage of a gymnast into skating, much like how Mao never let go of her ballet roots. Julia may not have the flow nor the maturity seen in Sasha's skating, but that's fine with me. I'd rather have Julia mature into her own skating in her own pace. She's improved after leaving Morozov's camp, IMO.

I wonder how ballerinas think of Mao. I think her skating has some characters which are ballet-influenced, but that's all. There're some overlaps between Fs and ballet but I think there're more differences. In this article, dancers and choreographers were asked their opinion of FS and most of them seem to be upset about FS becoming less and less artistic.
[url=][url=http://www.salon.com/2010/02/17/dancers_on_figure_skating/[/url]

Anw, I don't expect Mao to be a ballerina on ice. Ballet doesn't have a monopoly on grace, elegance, lines and good postures.

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PostSubject: Re: Mao's triple Axel   Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:54 am

pearlyriver wrote:
Abdiel wrote:


Here's a 2011 article about Julia training in rhythmic gymnastics as a child. I think it's safe to say she focused on figure skating later on, but retained the carriage of a gymnast into skating, much like how Mao never let go of her ballet roots. Julia may not have the flow nor the maturity seen in Sasha's skating, but that's fine with me. I'd rather have Julia mature into her own skating in her own pace. She's improved after leaving Morozov's camp, IMO.

I wonder how ballerinas think of Mao. I think her skating has some characters which are ballet-influenced, but that's all. There're some overlaps between Fs and ballet but I think there're more differences. In this article, dancers and choreographers were asked their opinion of FS and most of them seem to be upset about FS becoming less and less artistic.
[url=][url=http://www.salon.com/2010/02/17/dancers_on_figure_skating/[/url]

Anw, I don't expect Mao to be a ballerina on ice. Ballet doesn't have a monopoly on grace, elegance, lines and good postures.

no one claimed ballet had a monopoly over these aspects, but when skater appears to have all these aspect in their skating, it's normal to draw parallels, since it defines skaters like Mao who have a certain characteristics in their skating.
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PostSubject: Re: Mao's triple Axel   Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:12 am

ballerinamao wrote:


no one claimed ballet had a monopoly over these aspects, but when  skater appears to have all these aspect in their skating, it's normal to draw parallels, since it defines skaters like Mao who have a certain characteristics in their skating.

I mean many people associate all those aspects with ballet only. I like ballerina-styled skaters and I believe doing ballet can elevate the aristry and body movement of a skater, but I don't agree with some people who say something like: "She has never done ballet; She can't point her toes etc". I don't know much about both FS and ballet, but do skaters really need pointed toes?Skaters can have many styles and they should choose the styles in which they're comfortable in expressing themselves, and this is what's most important in connecting with the audiences.

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PostSubject: Re: Mao's triple Axel   Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:39 am

pearlyriver wrote:
ballerinamao wrote:


no one claimed ballet had a monopoly over these aspects, but when  skater appears to have all these aspect in their skating, it's normal to draw parallels, since it defines skaters like Mao who have a certain characteristics in their skating.

I mean many people associate all those aspects with ballet only. I like ballerina-styled skaters and I believe doing ballet can elevate the aristry and body movement of a skater, but I don't agree with some people who say something like: "She has never done ballet; She can't point her toes etc". I don't know much about both FS and ballet, but do skaters really need pointed toes?Skaters can have many styles and they should choose the styles in which they're comfortable in expressing themselves, and this is what's most important in connecting with the audiences.

When people say that, it's just excuses, a skater can be graceful, learn to point their toe, have great posture etc. without having had any ballet lessons. But usually the skaters who have had ballet like Mao have a noticeable superior lightness, flexibility, lines, and ease to their skating, and that's why they are often characterized as balletic skaters.
but I agree every skater should pursue the style they feel most comfortable with, because what fits to one skater may not fit to the other, we all have seen how wrong it can go, when skaters imitate styles that aren't their own.

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PostSubject: Re: Mao's triple Axel   Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:05 am

ballerinamao wrote:
pearlyriver wrote:
ballerinamao wrote:


no one claimed ballet had a monopoly over these aspects, but when  skater appears to have all these aspect in their skating, it's normal to draw parallels, since it defines skaters like Mao who have a certain characteristics in their skating.

I mean many people associate all those aspects with ballet only. I like ballerina-styled skaters and I believe doing ballet can elevate the aristry and body movement of a skater, but I don't agree with some people who say something like: "She has never done ballet; She can't point her toes etc". I don't know much about both FS and ballet, but do skaters really need pointed toes?Skaters can have many styles and they should choose the styles in which they're comfortable in expressing themselves, and this is what's most important in connecting with the audiences.

When people say that, it's just excuses, a skater can be graceful, learn to point their toe, have great posture etc. without having had any ballet lessons. But usually the skaters who have had ballet like Mao have a noticeable superior lightness, flexibility, lines, and ease to their skating, and that's why they are often characterized as balletic skaters.
but I agree every skater should pursue the style they feel most comfortable with, because what fits to one skater may not fit to the other, we all have seen how wrong it can go, when skaters imitate styles that aren't their own.


True. I've seen skaters who trained in both ballet and skating, and contrasted them with those who do not. The difference might not always be noticeable, but it's not that important if we'll use a case-to-case basis. That being said, I also agree with that a skater should be able to figure out what style works best for him or her... or suffer the consequences of scrutiny (usu of haters) for their efforts.  Crying or Very sad

I'd just like to add that while ballet is an excellent supplement to the over-all carriage of a skater, studying other forms of dance can be beneficial depending on the program. Remember how studying Indian Dance helped D/W in their Vancouver OD? How Mao worked on her 'coquettish' Caprice exhibition? (Where I first saw her Y-spiral into a 2A... glorious!) And how Orser's camp has a hiphop class as a supplement?

As for how ballerinas think of Mao... I think I read on this forum a few years ago that a famous ballerina came to see Mao's Ballade at the JSC (as a judge?). Also, was one of the people Mao shook hands with for her Smile/What a Wonderful World exhibition a ballerina? If so, then Mao must be interest them enough for them to watch her. Ballerinas follow a rigorous schedule, like skaters.  flower

...

Back to Mao's Axel. I think speed and timing are different aspects. You can have speed but not the timing, or vice-versa. Mao already has the speed, she just has to master the timing with the speed she has. (And the check out's running edge, though she doing well here when she does 3A cleanly.) It's not easy, but she can do it. She will do it. I don't care whether crappy tech controllers and judges put her down. If she succeeds and is happy with how she does it, then I'm happy too.

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PostSubject: Re: Mao's triple Axel   Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:58 pm

Talking about Mao's triple axel again, I've just watched the ladies practice clip at Japan Nationals and rewatched her triple axel (the one in which she almost fell) in slow motion. To my surprise, despite the messy landing, this has to be one of the most fully-rotated triple axels she's executed recently  Very Happy . If you want to see what I mean take a look at the following video (originally posted by shar, thank you  Wink ) and pay attention to the preparation at 0:30 (don't count the quarter prerotation) and then check the landing...it's 3.5 rotations!!! Not even the quarter turn she lacked in the GPF. Okay it's not the best example, but in terms of rotation this was quite good:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCMnIlE-wl0

I'm going to say something in the Japan Nationals thread in case you don't read this post  Smile  Do I sound too excited?  Hell, no!
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PostSubject: Re: Mao's triple Axel   Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:35 pm

Iceriver, you can do a thesis on Mao's 3A. I never know that the're so many scientific principles behind jumps  Razz

Thanks Abdiel and BallerinaMao for your input. I wonder if ballet training poses any difficulty for skater i.e are there any things taught in ballet which shouldn't be applied in skating?

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