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 The 'subjective side' in f.s., going into the OG 2010

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summervie
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PostSubject: Re: The 'subjective side' in f.s., going into the OG 2010   Mon May 25, 2009 4:15 pm

Okami wrote:

3. The events are really judged by a pack of trained monkeys from a nearby Zoo.
Oh, how nice would it be... And not to forget about the technical panel consisting of two keen dolphins (Flipper and Lipper) and Yu-na Kim (because we all know that her jumping technique is texbook). Smile That could save figure skating, the most subjective sport by itself, from its current... butchering.

Really, imagine how some top favourite of the Olympics (especially if this top favourite is a young girl) should feel before and during those several decisive minutes of his/her sport life. Even if you're totally ready and confident about your skills, the ice is slippery, and you easily can be misjudged (due to the ridiculousness of the current system as well as of some people), and even if you was lucky to evade that fate, you still can be misjudged intentionally.
What kind of tremendous pressure should it be, knowing that the years of hopes and work can be ruined just like that...
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PostSubject: Re: The 'subjective side' in f.s., going into the OG 2010   Tue May 26, 2009 1:51 am

Okami: Agreed. If I'm not mistaken there's only going to be 5 judges on the panel whose scores will count for the 09-10 season after the mandatory cutoff (2 judges) which is just ridiculous imo. I have always felt that judging is a draining process, and that particularly long competitions - e.g., 4CC, Worlds - introduces an element of fatigue and eventual error on the judges' part when they judge. This must be worse for the tech caller + assistant who has to go through checklists and replays of the elements to assign each spin, step sequence, and spiral a level and to scrutinize if a jump is worthy of an edge or UR call.

Speaking of tech controllers...

The thing with the Yukari issue is that the TECH controllers are inconsistent with their judgment of what constitutes an UR jump. The caller at Japanese Nats and WTT was without a doubt one of the most stringent ones we saw in competition this entire year, and had the caller in that competition been the one from Worlds (hardly gave downgrades) I have very little doubt that the highest combined score in the ladies belong to Mao. Of course, such inconsistency wouldn't even exist if the penalty for UR will be mandatory -GoE like the majority of us wishes it to be, instead of the lowered base value business the ISU adopted.

The worst part about this though is Speedy's general lack of interest to help and support FS's current situation, at least from the fan's perspective. His main reasoning behind the judging panel's reduction is on "economic factors" and for every audacious (and ridiculous) decision he makes, like cutting off ISU support to SA...I can't help but wonder what legitimate things he has actually done for the sport. Drama!

And summervie... ROTFLMAO @ Flipper and Lipper!

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PostSubject: Re: The 'subjective side' in f.s., going into the OG 2010   Tue May 26, 2009 7:07 am

Even though I hope for a fair Olympics without controversy I have a nagging suspicion that if anyone is going to be held up by the judges it's going to be Rochette or Kostner at Worlds in Turin. Even though Yu-Na has been shown to be the judges' favourite this year (and I don't begrudge her that because I think she is fabulous) I think all of the Asian girls are going to have to prove themselves against each other internationally.

Between Kim and Asada and the other Asian girls I believe (hope) that the one who skates the best at that particular night will be awarded. I really would love to have an all-Asian Ladies podium again but somehow I think judges will want to have at least one Caucasian skater in the mix. Yes, unfortunately I do believe racial reasons might factor in the result.

And Bad idea! Very Mad at the five judges idea!
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PostSubject: Re: The 'subjective side' in f.s., going into the OG 2010   Tue May 26, 2009 9:47 am

I agree... Mao's second 3 Flip is not underrotated... I was so confused how come it was marked underrotated... I even downloaded a video to watch it in a decent slow motion... and it wasn't

and to give up fair judging to benefit the sports is like giving up the taste of the food just to make it look good and yummy but the real fact... it's not yummy... at all...

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PostSubject: Re: The 'subjective side' in f.s., going into the OG 2010   Tue May 26, 2009 10:10 am

Polosatik shared a very interesting link. Have a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBwfbJOu8yI&NR=1

I guess the second part of the video you can evaluate by yourself, while the fact taken from the part one is very simple: the same guys who were buying judges at the football World Cup 2002 (for matches of the play-off Korea-Italy and Korea-Spain) now are in the same pictures with Yu-na.
Personally I find this fact a little bit disturbing. )


Last edited by summervie on Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The 'subjective side' in f.s., going into the OG 2010   Tue May 26, 2009 10:31 am

summervie wrote:
Polosatik shared a very interesting link. Have a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBwfbJOu8yI&NR=1

I guess the second part of the video you can evaluate by yourself, while the fact taken from the part one is very simple: the same guys who were buying judges at the football World Cup 2002 (for matches of the play-off Korea-Italy and Korea-Spain) now are in the same pictures with the skater Kim.
Personally I find this fact a little bit disturbing. )

I saw that already... it was disturbing! Imagine if they can manipulate football (supposedly the biggest sport on this Solar System) how much more if it's Figure Skating.... No

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PostSubject: Re: The 'subjective side' in f.s., going into the OG 2010   Tue May 26, 2009 10:42 am

The disturbing part here is that these guys have probably more money than all world figure skating federations alltogether. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: The 'subjective side' in f.s., going into the OG 2010   Tue May 26, 2009 11:56 am

Well, as to the video, no comment on the first part. But I have to say, although I am never a fan of Kim and I am perhaps the last few people that want Kim to be a world champion, I have to say Kim DESERVE this title. What she doesn't deserve is those inflated scores. I am kinda of tired about all those conspiracies. If we put too much attention to those conspiracies and say how judges do favor to Kim over and over again, what's the difference between us and those stupid Kim fans who always say that judges do favor to Mao.
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PostSubject: Re: The 'subjective side' in f.s., going into the OG 2010   Tue May 26, 2009 12:44 pm

Thanks for explaining this situation! Now i understand better, that Yukari didnt got medal Sad, Lonely
But this rules are very complicated, I donít understand this GOE and PCS and so on~~ You all know so much king

Quote :
The events are really judged by a pack of trained monkeys from a nearby Zoo.
Haha, I really thought that some times too!Smile

Btw, thanks, i found this avi pic somewhere in photobucket flower
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PostSubject: Re: The 'subjective side' in f.s., going into the OG 2010   Tue May 26, 2009 2:37 pm

summervie wrote:
Polosatik shared a very interesting link. Have a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBwfbJOu8yI&NR=1

I guess the second part of the video you can evaluate by yourself, while the fact taken from the part one is very simple: the same guys who were buying judges at the football World Cup 2002 (for matches of the play-off Korea-Italy and Korea-Spain) now are in the same pictures with the skater Kim.
Personally I find this fact a little bit disturbing. )

Out of subject:

The music of the video is the soundtrack of "Requiem for a Dream" . I just watched this movie last week at school, and I didn't know that this "popular" music in figure skating (used by Brian Joubert) came from this kind of movie. Well, I think the music is quite good and has a good momentum, but now, I can't help but think about that movie that totally disturbed me... aaahahh Sad

Sorry for the little out of subject hahah Razz
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PostSubject: Re: The 'subjective side' in f.s., going into the OG 2010   Wed May 27, 2009 4:20 am

tianrushui wrote:
Well, as to the video, no comment on the first part. But I have to say, although I am never a fan of Kim and I am perhaps the last few people that want Kim to be a world champion, I have to say Kim DESERVE this title. What she doesn't deserve is those inflated scores. I am kinda of tired about all those conspiracies. If we put too much attention to those conspiracies and say how judges do favor to Kim over and over again, what's the difference between us and those stupid Kim fans who always say that judges do favor to Mao.
ITA

getmewild wrote:
Imagine if they can manipulate football (supposedly the biggest sport on this Solar System) how much more if it's Figure Skating.... No
as a big fan of football I can say that it is not so hard to manipulate with results Disappointed I remember 2002 World Cup. I felt so sorry for Italy and especially for Spain. It's quite usual that referees help host countries but it was the worst refereeing I've ever seen. So it's unfair to compare Yuna's gold medal to 2002 World Cup Evil or Very Mad I am not Kim's fan, I'd prefer other skaters (like Mao) and sometimes I don't like when she's getting so much attention but she totally deserved her title.
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PostSubject: Re: The 'subjective side' in f.s., going into the OG 2010   Wed May 27, 2009 5:48 am

I don't think that any human can think that Yuna didn't deserve World title Suspect Her perfomances were affraid magnificent...She was ahead of anyone.The only thing that bothers a lot of people is the score,that's all.
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PostSubject: Re: The 'subjective side' in f.s., going into the OG 2010   Wed May 27, 2009 10:03 am

polosatik wrote:
I don't think that any human can think that Yuna didn't deserve World title Suspect Her perfomances were affraid magnificent...She was ahead of anyone.The only thing that bothers a lot of people is the score,that's all.

moniaak wrote:

as a big fan of football I can say that it is not so hard to manipulate with results Disappointed I remember 2002 World Cup. I felt so sorry for Italy and especially for Spain. It's quite usual that referees help host countries but it was the worst refereeing I've ever seen. So it's unfair to compare Yuna's gold medal to 2002 World Cup Evil or Very Mad I am not Kim's fan, I'd prefer other skaters (like Mao) and sometimes I don't like when she's getting so much attention but she totally deserved her title.

I agree.. Yuna deserves her title more than anybody in the 2009 worlds.. but her scores are completely inflated especially on her free skate....

She even got the best GOE on her not-so-well spirals...

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PostSubject: Re: The 'subjective side' in f.s., going into the OG 2010   Wed May 27, 2009 8:24 pm

snowdrops24 wrote:

As for Mao, instead of an OGM, I am honestly hoping first and foremost for a performance that showcases her joy and sense of freedom on ice - A tremendous 4-min-ride that takes me deep into what figure skating means to Mao; a performance which leaves no regrets. Politics/hidden agendas may be able to manipulate the overall result but they could never stop Mao from giving out a skate of her life. flower

Hehehe, well I'm rather late to this conversation Sweatdrop, but I agree with you, snowdrops24, that I'd absolutely love to see Mao give the performance of her life on the Olympic stage - a performance that she is completely and utterly satisfied with, and one that leaves that brilliant, unsurpassed 'Mao-smile' on her face! Yep!

That being said, if Mao does deliver such a performance and does not go home with the gold medal, I think my poor heart will break and I will swear off skating forever!!! Unconscious Sad, Lonely

Because I've always believed that when Mao skates her very best, with all the freedom and ease she can muster, then NO ONE can touch her! Cheering
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PostSubject: Re: The 'subjective side' in f.s., going into the OG 2010   Thu May 28, 2009 5:39 pm

For the ISU, what sells the best is "great rivalry" not "dominance". LA worlds has shown that they are really gearing up for the Olympics.

Kim is obviously inferior to Mao in techniques and lacking (gave up) any challenges and progresses in past three years. Therefore they needs to promote the "great artistry" part. Mao has been rather neglectful about presentations or audiences appeals. This tendency was clear than ever in this season. The judges could take advantages of Mao's fault to boost Kim's PCS merits.

Technique vs atristry is an old trick to sell (e.g. Slutskaya vs Kwan, Ito vs Yamaguchi). Technically better skaters are usually not lauded for artistry or presentation.

They have finally succeeded making up a "great rivalry" by handing out the world title to Kim. This rivalry is very artificial but better than nothing anyway. If there weren't "rivals" to contend closely, Mao always wins even with two or more errors. That is not good for anyone -- especially the ISU.
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PostSubject: Re: The 'subjective side' in f.s., going into the OG 2010   Thu May 28, 2009 7:40 pm

tianrushui wrote:
Well, as to the video, no comment on the first part. But I have to say, although I am never a fan of Kim and I am perhaps the last few people that want Kim to be a world champion, I have to say Kim DESERVE that title.
So who and where on this whole forum said that she UNDESERVED (or, well, just undeserved) the title? :-P
tianrushui wrote:

I am kinda of tired about all those conspiracies. If we put too much attention to those conspiracies and say how judges do favor to Kim over and over again, what's the difference between us and those stupid Kim fans who always say that judges do favor to Mao.
I don't see any connecting between "those stupid fans" behaviour and this thread, is there any? The topic has started from the quote of TAT and some related thoughts from her NTV+ co-commentator, and apparently behind any conclusion or supposition here there's a certain reasoning, opened for a further discussion, naturally (even if this means a direct warfare with the Cult of Cute Furry Pink Bunny Rabbits -_-). Nobody throws empty, blatant statements and runs away. So, whatever written here is right or wrong, I wouldn't say this thread has anything to do with "those stupid fans".

And, yes, talking about DESERVING: Yu-na won those Worlds WITH the help of judges, who gave her those scores after the Short. So, even setting aside the ethical side of this question - i.e. Yu-na's low hypocrisy concerning her warm-up suffering from Japanese skaters prior to the Worlds (which way she did ease her competition life quite a bit), I wouldn't hurry with writing that word ("deserved") in capital letters.
Here some would exclaim: oh, but look at the both programs - Mao had more mistakes anyway, so whatever was the case with judges, it didn't matter - Yu-na would have won in any case!
Smile
Well... Try to think why, for example, Miki jumps her quad at warm-ups and practices but almost never at competitions. Or why Joubert jumped 3 quads at Cup of Russia three years ago, relaxed, without any other big contenders around and without fear to lose (some Cup of Russia), but never again has done anything like that since then (especially at really important competitions). Why?
Because - again and again - apparently it's much easier to be confident about your singing skills while being alone in a shower, than alone on a stage in front of thousands of spectators. :-) And it's much easier to rotate jumps when you're not nervous like hell, when there's no any "MUST", when you don't feel pressure (or, well, PRESSURE)... or when you have a 10 points lead after the Short and you know that scores will be on your side anyway.
And vice-versa: it's somewhat more difficult to skate, knowing that you MUST to deliver the very best of your (damn difficult) program, and still, most likely it won't be enough.

The same with the last Olympics. Sasha was awarded with some huge scores (at least I recall the reaction of Russian commentators over it - at that time CoP was a total mystery to me) after not so perfect free skate, and then came out Slutskaya, knowing that no one will do any favour like that to her, and now she just HAVE to deliver her very best. But then under that "HAVE" she fell, and everybody was like: oh, anyway she fell, so whatever scores were, fair or now, the final placement is fair. Smile

Basically, Yu-na was awarded by the gold already after the short program, everything afterwards was just a formality (unless Mao delivered even a more miraculous free skate than the ones of Tokyo and Gotenborg, and Kim missed half of her jumps). Short program has been always a Yu-na's territory, while free skate - much more demanding in terms of technics, physics and mental toughness (not the strongest side of Yu-na) - has been the one of Mao.
I don't say the final result was undeserved (in 'daily' sense of this word), just that if the scores after the short program were more reasonable, and thus, the pressure (and also motivation) before the free skate was distributed more equally, there could have been absolutely different ending.
Think about it.


Last edited by summervie on Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The 'subjective side' in f.s., going into the OG 2010   Sat May 30, 2009 12:47 am

zooma wrote:
Mao has been rather neglectful about presentations or audiences appeals. This tendency was clear than ever in this season. The judges could take advantages of Mao's fault to boost Kim's PCS merits.

I don't think Mao was neglectful about her presentation! I think that she couldn't pay as much attention to appealing to the audience in her competetive programs precisely because her jump technique was very unstable. Because of that, she had to concentrate on not falling too much. In addition, the choreography she had was too complex and she had to simplify her programs (especially the LP) and they didn't look quite the way they were supposed to. If you look at the early run-throughs of the Masquerade LP, the choreography was a bit more complex. The spins were different as well, and 2A was scheduled in a different place.

Her presentation was superb in her Gala performances. I've read many posts on GS and other forums where the users said that Mao's EX was by far the best. queen

I think that if Mao's 3Lz/3S become more stable and she gets a jump layout that she's comfortable with, she'll be able to pay more attention to her presentation in competitions. Yep!

You are right, though, that some people (like CBC commentators) are trying to put Mao/Yuna rivarly as an artist versus technician sort of thing... Which IMHO is ridiculous. Mao takes extreme care to work on the beauty on her skating, on achieving beautiful posotions, and on choosing different type of music every year... The Eurosport commentators, as well as Vasya, Peggy and Uncle Dick could appreciate her qualities. It's a shame that some people prefer to force skaters into made-up roles just because it suits their need for drama better. Disappointed

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