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 Technique advancement and different styles of artistry

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josling
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:10 am

An article about 'Mao's new combo' :
http://www.examiner.com/x-20118-Figure-Skating-Examiner~y2009m8d18-Maos-new-combo

Quote :
If she puts it into her short program and uses the triple lutz as her solo jump, she will have a 2.2 point advantage over Kim on her base mark, all else equal. Note that if she dose a triple axel-double toe instead, her base mark would actually be lower than Kimís by 0.5.

Why would her base mark with 3A-2T be lower than Kim's? Because 3F-3T and 3A-2T both have a base value of 9.50 points, eh?! Or is it because Yuna will use 3Lz-3T!? Or is it all about spins and steps?! Question Suspect
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:27 am

josling wrote:
An article about 'Mao's new combo' :
http://www.examiner.com/x-20118-Figure-Skating-Examiner~y2009m8d18-Maos-new-combo

Quote :
If she puts it into her short program and uses the triple lutz as her solo jump, she will have a 2.2 point advantage over Kim on her base mark, all else equal. Note that if she dose a triple axel-double toe instead, her base mark would actually be lower than Kimís by 0.5.

Why would her base mark with 3A-2T be lower than Kim's? Because 3F-3T and 3A-2T both have a base value of 9.50 points, eh?! Or is it because Yuna will use 3Lz-3T!? Or is it all about spins and steps?! Question Suspect

The writer's calculation is wrong.
I think he put 3F instead of adding the points of 3Lz to Mao's base mark even though he mentioned about the solo jump. Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:41 am

I just read that article too. Do the skaters really not get any extra points for doing their jumps in combos?! I always thought they did... scratch

If he made a mistake you should leave a comment, Cocunut.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:23 am

Star85 wrote:
I just read that article too. Do the skaters really not get any extra points for doing their jumps in combos?! I always thought they did... scratch
Nope. Sequences, however, get a 0.8 "negative bonus" when executed. I believe one of the skating feds made a move to have combination jumps receive a 1.1x bonus in this year's ISU Congress but the proposal was quickly shot down.

There's so many things that need to be addressed in CoP (e.g., scoring 3-loop combinations; redistributing points so that a 3A or 4T is worth MORE, not less, than a 3Lz-3T etc.) but change can only happen so fast under a Speedy-governed ISU. Very Mad

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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:43 am

How can they expect the sport to be pushed to new boundaries and see great combos and impossible jumps if they don't reward skaters properly who dared to do what others don't?

It's really more impressive of Mao to try and push herself and the sport despite this kind of scoring system and double downgrades.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:51 pm

roma wrote:
How can they expect the sport to be pushed to new boundaries and see great combos and impossible jumps if they don't reward skaters properly who dared to do what others don't?

It's really more impressive of Mao to try and push herself and the sport despite this kind of scoring system and double downgrades.

Is that impressive or foolish?

I think there is merit in keeping the sport artistic rather than like gymnastics. Others may think differently but for me there needs to be credit (points) given for the overall artistic look such that the technical difficulty doesn't make for a "track and field" look to the sport.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:56 pm

some jump combinations should be worth more than others even though they carry the same first jump like 3a-3t. 3a-3l shuld be WAYYYY more than 1 point than 3a-3t
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:01 pm

San_Fran wrote:

Is that impressive or foolish?

I think there is merit in keeping the sport artistic rather than like gymnastics. Others may think differently but for me there needs to be credit (points) given for the overall artistic look such that the technical difficulty doesn't make for a "track and field" look to the sport.

Welcome to the forum, San_Fran! Very Happy

I definitely agree that the judging should reward artistry, but I think there is merit in doing something that no one has ever accomplished before. I'm not saying that all the other skaters need to learn triple axels or quads, but I have great admiration and respect for Mao because she sees the limits that other skaters before her have reached, and she wants to test them. Yep!

And also, I think technical progress is necessary/inevitable. Even in ballet, which is arguably the most artistic and pretty of all dance forms, the dancers have become progressively technically advanced.

Yes, I don't want to see a bunch of 15-year old jumping beans either - but that's what I think makes Mao so wonderful - she has the technical virtuousity, but also the most gorgeous lines, incredible flexibility, grace, fluidity, and musicality.

GOO MAO! Cheering
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:07 pm

Thank you Batsuchan for your welcome and I agree with you. That was a dumb first post on my part and I do admire Mao's skating and pushing the sport to new levels.

I would like to see Mao do really well this year and probably should have more confidence in the way Tatiana is pushing her into a more difficult program
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:42 pm

San_Fran wrote:
Thank you Batsuchan for your welcome and I agree with you. That was a dumb first post on my part and I do admire Mao's skating and pushing the sport to new levels.

I would like to see Mao do really well this year and probably should have more confidence in the way Tatiana is pushing her into a more difficult program

Haha, no need to apologize your post! Very Happy

I do sometimes feel like it would be better if Mao focused more on the performing rather than "doing all the elements," but recently she has been talking about trying to make the program work as a whole, so I hope that's a good sign! flower
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:03 pm

I have always been more of tech-skater > artistic skater fanatic at heart, but a good balance between the two is always going to be the ideal. And Mao satisfies both requirements! Yep!

The men's event unfortunately hasn't been that way IMO. There are far too many male skaters concerned with being lyrical and maximizing points that they completely ignore the quad attempt - or even landing the second 3A cleanly for that matter. It's CoP-smart, yes, but that kind of skating just doesn't do it for me, especially in the men's event. It doesn't help that those that DO land the quad frequently make errors in the remainder of the program or receive less points on other elements. Yep, Sadly In that regards, I'm fervently hoping the return of Plushy, Stefan, and Dai in addition to a stronger BriJou, Tono, and Taka-chan will take part in eradicating this recent trend... Who, me?

Batsuchan wrote:
I do sometimes feel like it would be better if Mao focused more on the performing rather than "doing all the elements," but recently she has been talking about trying to make the program work as a whole, so I hope that's a good sign! flower
The fact that Mao keeps talking about staying calm and "performing" the program rather than focusing on the elements like in the past has to be a good sign, no? I love you

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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:59 pm

clovera wrote:

The fact that Mao keeps talking about staying calm and "performing" the program rather than focusing on the elements like in the past has to be a good sign, no? I love you

Yep! Though in my heart of hearts, I would love to hear Mao say "I'm going to have fun out there" - because I think that's all she really needs to do. Many Hearts
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:29 am

clovera wrote:
I have always been more of tech-skater > artistic skater fanatic at heart, but a good balance between the two is always going to be the ideal. And Mao satisfies both requirements!

I agree with you clovera. Although I do appreciate beautiful programs, figure skating is a sport. Therefore, the technical elements must be there. The boundaries in sport are always changing, race time records always being broken etc. What Mao is doing is fantastic, it shows her athleticism.
It seems that to certain people, especially certain commentators, being too technically great isn't too good (unless you're a man of course, but I won't go into gender inequality arguments here silent ). They always use artistry against technique for female skaters (I noticed it happened between Kwan and Slutskaya), and I think it's horrible to put down someone's training (and so much of it) like that. I think that in figure skating, technique is more important than artistry. Artistry is of course important, but not as important. Again, it is a Sport! Mao does have both, but she is the superior athlete because she excels in the technical area. Sometimes, all the hype on *someone's* artistry really annoys me.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:31 am

I think that artistry is crutial, but the technical aspect of figure skating is even MORE crutail. Figure skating wouldn't be figure skating as we know it if it weren't for all the technical elements. Ok, well that's kind of a "duh". lol. But what I'm trying to say is, I guess, is that the technical elements are more what figure skating has built on (This is arguable though, I suppose. Especially if you go WAY back. Ok, so let me say modern day figure skating). The artistry is just essential to make figure skating look good, be more entertaining. The sport has advanced technically throughout the years, but it has NOT lost touch with the artistry. In fact, I think it has advanced artistically too. There are individual skaters who do not have the perfect ballance of artistry and technicallity, but I do not think the sport is out of ballance.

I think Mao has a perfect ballance! Wink I also think she's a better technical AND artistic skater than any other woman out there!
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:36 am

[quote="sapphiresky] Sometimes, all the hype on *someone's* artistry really annoys me.
[/quote]

YES! This annoys me too! Especially when it's for a skater I think actually lacks in artistry compared to other skaters who don't get the deserved hype! I think Mao gets really gypped there sometimes. Very Mad
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:01 am

San_Fran wrote:
I think there is merit in keeping the sport artistic rather than like gymnastics. Others may think differently but for me there needs to be credit (points) given for the overall artistic look such that the technical difficulty doesn't make for a "track and field" look to the sport.

Of course this sport also requires artistry. I did not mean it to sound like it should be all about jumps. Its just that for me some jumps deserve to be marked higher because of the difficulty and the risks involved. If those jumps don't get high marks even if performed well then I guess most skaters will probably just stick to easier jumps or combos if it gets (almost) the same marks as the more difficult ones.

Star85 wrote:
I think that artistry is crutial, but the technical aspect of figure skating is even MORE crutail. Figure skating wouldn't be figure skating as we know it if it weren't for all the technical elements.
I agree. This is a SPORT after all. Smile

clovera wrote:
The fact that Mao keeps talking about staying calm and "performing" the program rather than focusing on the elements like in the past has to be a good sign, no?

Batsuchan wrote:
Yep! Though in my heart of hearts, I would love to hear Mao say "I'm going to have fun out there" - because I think that's all she really needs to do.

I really hope to see not just a focused Mao but also a Mao who's having fun at her first "masquerade ball (Olympics)" and overcoming all pressure to give the performance of her life.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:04 pm

Star85 wrote:
YES! This annoys me too! Especially when it's for a skater I think actually lacks in artistry compared to other skaters who don't get the deserved hype! I think Mao gets really gypped there sometimes. Very Mad
I completely agree that Mao is so underrated in terms of artistry. I'm not a skater, but in music, in which artistry/musicality is also really important, and I've noticed that the really flashy/exciting/powerful performances are actually very easy musically. It's so much easier for someone to stand on stage and sing their lungs out- not technically, but artistically speaking. Yet this is what seems to make an impression on audiences- for example, on American Idol, the performances with huge glory notes are the ones that everyone thinks are the greatest. Yet the performances that are slower, more beautiful than just powerful, are so much harder to pull off, musically. I play the piano, and I find slow movements to be extremely hard to put together, because of all the intricate details that need to be paid attention to. Mao's performances- when she is going the beautiful, elegant, graceful route- are exactly the same way. It is extremely hard to do what she does artistically- it's not an in-your-face kind of artistry, it's more of a subtle one, but it's more detailed and intricate and just breathtaking, if you notice what she's doing. The softness of her arms, and how she changes it in different parts of the music based on what is happening/the harmonies, the way she connects each movement to the next, and the beautiful lightness with which she does her step sequences- it's all so perfect and well-done and HARD to do. It's easy to make a powerful, big, strong performance interesting, but to make a beautiful, delicate performance captivating is so, SO dang hard, and Mao is a master at it. Mao is so underrated when it comes to her artistry and musicality, and it irritates me, especially since what she does is so special. I wish people would realize that.

Though I do get the feeling what I just wrote isn't going to be completely relevant for this season, as she's stepping away from the Chopin and going towards more energetic music. I hope she puts her artistry to great use/challenge this season, keeps up the kinds of things she's been doing, and strives to do more.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:44 am

Ballerina - Yes I agree almost everything you said!

I am a professional singer. Song selection is crutial for performances, and it's often not easy to pick the right ones. Yes, some songs that don't sound very hard, and don't show off your voice as much can actually be challenging. However, songs where you belt it out always work great in competitions. Many of them aren't easy atistically, or technically. It requires lots of range, dinamics, power, and support. Stuff like Mariah, Whitney, Christina, Celine, etc. is some of the hardest stuff out there (for girls anyway).

Yes, skaters with a more powerful style do look more masculine. Mao's light, pretty movement and artistry fit figure skating perfectly. And I don't think her style looks easier at all. I think looks the most beautiful, graceful, and skillful - and being able to make your skating look like that doesn't = easy!

It frustrates me so much when I hear people go on about Yuna's great artistry. Although she has improved, I still find myeslf thinking, "What?! Her artistry and expression doesn't move me at all! It's more heavy, and stiff than graceful!" Then I really get frustrated when they start going on about how Mao lacks in artistry!! Her skating moves me, and brings tears to my eyes! I don't understand why some people can't see that! Oh well, I'm gonna shut up now, cause I know I can't change their silly little minds! Panic! Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:30 am

For a skater with the golden (and only golden!) hopes to "have fun" at the Olympics?
Hm...
That would be quite a feat! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:32 am

Haha yeah, I agree with all of you.
I think North American culture (which is mostly where I hear all those annoying commentators) prefer a blunt "in your face" artistry. They can't really see subtle artistry, they prefer everything to be "big" - just look at their pop culture. I think some people just fit that style, and therefore all the hype on them.
I noticed that European commentators can see more beauty in Mao's skating, probably b/c of the way different cultures see the world. Europeans seem to be able to tell more "polished" and elegant skating. My French teacher always talked about this difference, and I've noticed it too. I can't really describe it, although Yuna has artistry, it's just not polished enough, too "blunt" I guess and not intricate, almost lacking depth, compared to Mao. I may be biased but it's not for me. I study music, and I guess a suitable metaphor between them would be "popular classical" (eg. pachelbel canon, swan lake, ode to joy lol, even scheherazade Razz) and the really nice classical that the common audience does not know but that are more beautiful and deep.
But yes, Mao enjoying her skating is the most important, and she seems to be really happy with her programs so I think she'll have fun this season.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:32 am

I agree too. "Exaggerate" and "Claim" seems to be favorite things for North American.
This culture is not that bad but it hurts someone who never want to exaggerate and
claim, doesn't do as the North American do.
By the way, it's good for Mao to learn how to skate North American style to appeal audience there too. But pls. not claim anything like someones.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:12 am

I agree with so many of you here! Smile

Everyone's taste is different, for example to me artistry and a perfect interpretation of a program looks sth like this:

Angela Nikodinov 2001 Worlds SP:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToIzqrPvrqc&feature=related

Shizuka Arakawa 2004 Worlds LP:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xzGdVragbo

No exaggeration, very natural, subtle but with huge impact.

Another wonderful artist for me is Elene Gedevanishvili. If only she could get her jumps back and was consistent enough she'd be the best! Thumbs up! (not counting Mao of course Wink ).

Artistry is so difficult to judge because it depends more on how you connect emotionally with a particular skater or performer in general than what they actually do. When you recognize something within yourself they just managed to express then you feel they "touched your heartď with their marvellous artistry. At least thatís my theory geek .

E.g. I was never touched by Michelle to a point to become a fan and she never moved me to tears and all that stuff her fans always talk about. I did like her but nothing more. I never got Sasha even though I love her positions. Johnny Weir or even Stephane Lambiel do nothing for me "artisticallyď (while Yagudin, Kulik, Abt or Takahashi on the other hand... Love Hearts ).
And itís not their fault at all and doesnít mean they are not wonderful skaters. I just didnít connect and so if I were to compare their skating to those I feel connected to something would always be too much, not enough etc.

And sometimes the connection happens for one performance only because you were perhaps just in the right mood and suddenly you see their brilliant artistry you never noticed before and may never notice since.

Whatever it is, itís never just the skater, you have to do your part as well and thatís why we will never agree on who is the better artist.

Apart from the undisputable fact that Mao is definitely better artist than Yu-Na silent Hell, no! :albino: :joker:


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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:56 am

Kawaiimao, your entire post Love Hearts

This is exactly what I think every time I see fans arguing about who is better artistically and who could use some improvement. We will never get to the end of this argument so there is truly no point. Every skater is different, of course, but every one of us is different too! It's ridiculous to think we would suddenly all agree on how we perceive a certain sound, movement, expression, etc. We've all seen and learned different things in different ways so it's only obvious that we would feel different while watching the exact same thing. It just touches some more than others.

For example, I find this woman to be absolutely fantastic :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFgMpRiVMaI

She does all the music and arrangements by herself in her basement. She also keeps a vBlog on YT where she sometimes asks fans to send her music for some lyrics she doesn't know what to do with and vice versa, or art for her album covers, etc. But my mother argues with me every time that what she does is not music. To her, it's not. To me, it is. We will never agree on what truly defines music but it's fine! Makes for interesting conversations.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:54 pm

chiyori wrote:
Kawaiimao, your entire post Love Hearts

This is exactly what I think every time I see fans arguing about who is better artistically and who could use some improvement. We will never get to the end of this argument so there is truly no point. Every skater is different, of course, but every one of us is different too! It's ridiculous to think we would suddenly all agree on how we perceive a certain sound, movement, expression, etc. We've all seen and learned different things in different ways so it's only obvious that we would feel different while watching the exact same thing. It just touches some more than others.

For example, I find this woman to be absolutely fantastic :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFgMpRiVMaI

She does all the music and arrangements by herself in her basement. She also keeps a vBlog on YT where she sometimes asks fans to send her music for some lyrics she doesn't know what to do with and vice versa, or art for her album covers, etc. But my mother argues with me every time that what she does is not music. To her, it's not. To me, it is. We will never agree on what truly defines music but it's fine! Makes for interesting conversations.


Omg I was always loved Imogen Heap, but I never knew she was so independabent.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:38 pm

Hey - I'm thinking that this artistry/expression stuff deserves its own thread. What do you guys think? Question (Mods, maybe we should split into a separate thread...?)

Star85 wrote:

It frustrates me so much when I hear people go on about Yuna's great artistry. Although she has improved, I still find myeslf thinking, "What?! Her artistry and expression doesn't move me at all! It's more heavy, and stiff than graceful!" Then I really get frustrated when they start going on about how Mao lacks in artistry!! Her skating moves me, and brings tears to my eyes! I don't understand why some people can't see that! Oh well, I'm gonna shut up now, cause I know I can't change their silly little minds! Panic! Rolling Eyes

I *COMPLETELY* agree! Yep! And I totally agree with kawaiimao that Mao's artistry is absolutely superior. Hell, no! But Chiyori makes a good point that everyone has different tastes.

Personally, *I* tend to like the performers that are SUBTLE, pay attention to detail, and are extremely beautiful in their carriage/lines - performers that some people call "boring" and "cold."

But then I had a hard time reconciling this with my complete adoration of the ballerina Diana Vishneva, who throws her soul into every performance and is as dramatic as they get. Trying to explain why I love both Mao and Vishneva boiled down to this:
1) effortless execution of topnotch technique (they make the most difficult moves look easy)
2) extreme musicality (as if the music flows through their bodies)
3) gorgeous lines/carriage
4) expression through the BODY (and not just the face)
4) *HONESTY* in performance - yes, that is why I love Vishneva in all her extreme passion - because it feels genuine; it doesn't feel exaggerated; I don't feel her thinking "Ok, this is where I have to look like I'm in despair." And that is why I don't mind that Mao sometimes keeps her face expressionless - because that is honest for her; she's focusing, and that's what you see. And that is why I dislike Yu-Na's performances (where the facial expressions seem forced), and why I did not like the ballerina Natalia Osipova, who has technique to burn but turned me off with her mannerisms, which seemed rehearsed and not natural.

So that's what *I* like... Very Happy

One area where I do think Yu-Na has an edge is in making the whole program looks smooth and seamless. Mao tends to focus a lot on the individual elements, so there are these ups-and-downs in her performance, whereas Yu-Na performs throughout the entire program. As clovera reminds me, though, Mao is working on this! Thumbs up!

For me, Yu-Na's showy performances may appeal to the masses like a James Bond movie, but Mao's elegant performances are like those best picture movies that you savor and remember forever... flower
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   

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