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 Technique advancement and different styles of artistry

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kawaiimao
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:07 am

Absolutely agree, Batsuchan! Very Happy
I don't follow balet but I'm sure I'd like the same ballerinas as you.

For me it's classical music. I've never played the piano so I don't understand the technique etc. but I love listening to it and know exactly what kind of interpretation I like.

For example compare this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejXPcv9MS7s&feature=related
to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kKoHqdImYE

This is what I was hoping would be Mao's FP for the Olympic season - Liebestraum. I've already posted the first video of Rubinstein playing it when we were still speculating what her music will be.

The second video is the same piece played by Evgeny Kissin. I'm sure he's a great pianist but this interpretation totally ruins it for me, while Rubinstein's is subtle, magical and to me also much more emotional.

And I also agree it has nothing to do with the original thread so if our mods would be so kind... Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:10 am

kawaiimao wrote:

And I also agree it has nothing to do with the original thread so if our mods would be so kind... Smile

All done! Yep!
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:35 am

I totaly agree with you, Batsuchan and kawaiimao. flower
Kawaiimao, I also think that Kissin's interpretation is nothing compared to Rubinstein's. My mother, my father, my sister and me, we're all pianists (my sister and my father professionel) and we don't like Kissin at all. Smile

And I also think Mao has the best artistry of the topskaters right now. Yu-Na is nice but... - I don't know how to say it in english - it looks so study, maybe also robotic (but it seems too hard because I like Yuna too). The couch say "Lift your arm!" and Yuna does it but there's no emotion. It looks like she practice the expression in her face and maybe Mao does it too (I don't think so) but it isn't looks like that. Yuna has very good choreographers and she ist a fantastic skater but she will never be as graceful as Mao. Mao has the musicality and naturalness in her skating and it always looks like it comes from heart.
I think many of the commentators and judges aren't very musical and they don't see the difference between Mao and Yuna. And there is the Danse Macabre program which also unmusical people enjoy, and there is Mao's Claire de Lune program which is "only" elegant, musical and graceful and they can't do anything with it.
....that's dolorous! Crying or Very sad

Sorry for my bad english. Embarassed
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:37 am

kawaiimao wrote:

For me it's classical music. I've never played the piano so I don't understand the technique etc. but I love listening to it and know exactly what kind of interpretation I like.

For example compare this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejXPcv9MS7s&feature=related
to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kKoHqdImYE

This is what I was hoping would be Mao's FP for the Olympic season - Liebestraum. I've already posted the first video of Rubinstein playing it when we were still speculating what her music will be.

The second video is the same piece played by Evgeny Kissin. I'm sure he's a great pianist but this interpretation totally ruins it for me, while Rubinstein's is subtle, magical and to me also much more emotional.

Oh wow, the comparison of the two pianists is really a perfect example. (Another comparison could be between Yundi Li and Lang Lang Sweatdrop ).
Mao has more of an emotional impact on me as well because her feelings on the ice seem raw. She's not trying to put on a mask...her feelings are so much more deep than just the expression on her face.

@ Batsuchan nice reference to ballet I love youYep!
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:33 pm

Artistry [in figure skating] is being born in the depths of one's heart. At that stage it is still a raw Artistry, without form, colour, scent, without any nuances or intonations. It looks like a little, pocket-size sun, and being a pure energy, it is still indigestible and apparently dangerous.
Here is being formed the power of Artistry, which directly depends on the working ability of one's heart.

During the second stage Artistry goes through the prism of a human's soul (which, being in good and healthy conditions, arguably looks like a rainbow). It is considered that this phase is the most important one, since Artistry obtains here its actual essence: form, palette, sound, context, content and a thousand of different inflexions.
Possessing energy and personality, but at the same time little of the sense of direction and practically - everything else, it is still rather 'useless' though.

There comes the third stage. Inside of one's mind Artistry obtains its purpose. Taking a ride on this the most intricate of all rollercoasters (or... the dullest dusty contryside route - in some occasions) it 'learns' to move in sophisticated ways and various directions (of artistry?), gets the feeling of the road under the feet, and what is the most important - realizes the need to walk.

After the final stage is concluded, Artistry is being distributed (in a thin layer) over all available space through the medium of eyes and - sometimes - smile. Many Hearts
~~~

P.s.
These days many 'artists' in figure skating look to me like that android, whose preprogrammed route is already completed, but the fuel still hasn't run out. So he's standing there with the forehead set against the wall and in the most outstanding way... ~sparkles~. Sweatdrop Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:34 am

Batsuchan wrote:


Personally, *I* tend to like the performers that are SUBTLE, pay attention to detail, and are extremely beautiful in their carriage/lines - performers that some people call "boring" and "cold."

But then I had a hard time reconciling this with my complete adoration of the ballerina Diana Vishneva, who throws her soul into every performance and is as dramatic as they get. Trying to explain why I love both Mao and Vishneva boiled down to this:
1) effortless execution of topnotch technique (they make the most difficult moves look easy)
2) extreme musicality (as if the music flows through their bodies)
3) gorgeous lines/carriage
4) expression through the BODY (and not just the face)
4) *HONESTY* in performance - yes, that is why I love Vishneva in all her extreme passion - because it feels genuine; it doesn't feel exaggerated; I don't feel her thinking "Ok, this is where I have to look like I'm in despair." And that is why I don't mind that Mao sometimes keeps her face expressionless - because that is honest for her; she's focusing, and that's what you see. And that is why I dislike Yu-Na's performances (where the facial expressions seem forced), and why I did not like the ballerina Natalia Osipova, who has technique to burn but turned me off with her mannerisms, which seemed rehearsed and not natural.

So that's what *I* like... Very Happy

One area where I do think Yu-Na has an edge is in making the whole program looks smooth and seamless. Mao tends to focus a lot on the individual elements, so there are these ups-and-downs in her performance, whereas Yu-Na performs throughout the entire program. As clovera reminds me, though, Mao is working on this! Thumbs up!

For me, Yu-Na's showy performances may appeal to the masses like a James Bond movie, but Mao's elegant performances are like those best picture movies that you savor and remember forever... flower

I couldn't have put it better myself, as far as why I love Mao's artistry. I still can't see why Yuna's perfomances appeal to the masses more, but as some of you have said on here, everyone has their own interpretation of what's good, and no one can help what touches, and moves them. Some say that Yuna's programs are more excititing. Even though her music may be a little more exciting, I actually find Mao's mellower programs to be more exciting just because of the fact that I think her skating is better scratch. I also find a thing of such beauty as Mao's skating to be extremely exciting. But yes, this is just me. Swoon


Summervie: I must say, you are a very deep, brilliant person Like a Star @ heaven flower
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:50 am

[quote="MaoMaoRevolution"]
kawaiimao wrote:


Oh wow, the comparison of the two pianists is really a perfect example. (Another comparison could be between Yundi Li and Lang Lang Sweatdrop ).
Mao has more of an emotional impact on me as well because her feelings on the ice seem raw. She's not trying to put on a mask...her feelings are so much more deep than just the expression on her face.

@ Batsuchan nice reference to ballet I love youYep!

Yeah, speaking about Lang Lang give me a completely blank expressionless face over this anytime! Escape

At least I believe in piano competitions it's the music that matters and they don't gain or lose points because of the faces and gestures they make while playing, right?

It really scares me when some people automatically equate overdramatic gestures and exaggerated facial expressions with feeling the music more. Rolling Eyes
(I mean generally in any art).
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:02 am

[quote="kawaiimao"]
MaoMaoRevolution wrote:
kawaiimao wrote:


Oh wow, the comparison of the two pianists is really a perfect example. (Another comparison could be between Yundi Li and Lang Lang Sweatdrop ).
Mao has more of an emotional impact on me as well because her feelings on the ice seem raw. She's not trying to put on a mask...her feelings are so much more deep than just the expression on her face.

@ Batsuchan nice reference to ballet I love youYep!

Yeah, speaking about Lang Lang give me a completely blank expressionless face over this anytime! Escape

At least I believe in piano competitions it's the music that matters and they don't gain or lose points because of the faces and gestures they make while playing, right?

It really scares me when some people automatically equate overdramatic gestures and exaggerated facial expressions with feeling the music more. Rolling Eyes
(I mean generally in any art).
Right, the facial expressions and gestures don't count in terms of points. Normally, they're fine, but when they get really big and exaggerated, they really distract the audience- instead of listening to the music, people just stare the artist's really dramatic gestures instead. My flute teacher was even telling me about this girl who was using such over-the-top gestures and arm movements (while holding her flute!) that she couldn't even get out half the notes. So to a point, they're fine, but when they start getting really big and over the top, they can even take away from what you're trying to do- make the audience feel the beauty of the music/your emotions...which is ironic considering what you said- that people think that the greater the gestures, the greater the artist is emotionally connecting with the music.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:35 pm

josling wrote:
I totaly agree with you, Batsuchan and kawaiimao. flower
Kawaiimao, I also think that Kissin's interpretation is nothing compared to Rubinstein's. My mother, my father, my sister and me, we're all pianists (my sister and my father professionel) and we don't like Kissin at all. Smile

I agree with you all except for this haha. My mom and I (we both study classical music) love Kissin (Karajan, in fact, called him a genius, which I think he is Very Happy). I think besides interpreting the composer, we have to add ourselves into any art that we produce.
Liebstraum stands for "dreams of love". I loved both Rubinstein and Kissin's versions- they brought me two different versions of love. Their differing views and experiences of love are all showcased in their music. They both added their own feelings to Liszt's remarkable composition.
Has any of you heard Kissin's Chopin Fantasie Impromptue? It moved me so much, especially near the end, so soft and beautiful:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U1lYuSHrwo

I think another reason I like Mao's skating, besides her deep and subtle interpretation of music, is how she brings herself into her skating. When I watch her skate, I see "Mao" and no one else. There's no acting (like Yuna when she puts on her different expressions), it's just Mao moving to the music, and that's what moves me.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:40 am

bellarina wrote:
My flute teacher was even telling me about this girl who was using such over-the-top gestures and arm movements (while holding her flute!) that she couldn't even get out half the notes.
This reminds me of several bandmates back in high school who "muscled" and huffed through their third octave notes on the flute that it sounded particularly awful; the same flutists similarly can never apply a proper staccato to anything in the first register either... Sweatdrop

I remember reading on a FS blog that Mao's main "issue" is that she skates to herself instead of to the audience. This, to me, isn't an issue at all - it simply is a different way of connecting to the music and being expressive. Indeed, for certain pieces of music I would think it is better for a skater to lose themselves in their performances instead of aiming to please the masses sitting across the boards. Mao's So Deep... and Miki's Requiem are great examples of this, IMO. Yep! And when you think of about it, the genuine smile and joy that Mao exudes when she performs is the product of skating from within. I love you

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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:19 pm

clovera wrote:

I remember reading on a FS blog that Mao's main "issue" is that she skates to herself instead of to the audience. This, to me, isn't an issue at all - it simply is a different way of connecting to the music and being expressive.

I totally agree. Yep! However, I will say that there are times when Mao loses herself in the music/performances, when she BECOMES the music, and there are times when Mao forgets the music and loses herself in the elements, and you can see the "Gotta concentrate and not mess up this 3Lz outside edge!"

As long as it's the former and not the latter, I think it's perfectly fine, and beautiful to behold!! :cheer:Especially when it's capped off with that glowing Mao-smile! flower
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:49 pm

Quote :
I totally agree. However, I will say that there are times when Mao loses herself in the music/performances, when she BECOMES the music, and there are times when Mao forgets the music and loses herself in the elements, and you can see the "Gotta concentrate and not mess up this 3Lz outside edge!"

As long as it's the former and not the latter, I think it's perfectly fine, and beautiful to behold!! :cheer:Especially when it's capped off with that glowing Mao-smile!

Great post and I totally agree! I guess I enjoy both skaters who express themselves with their body movements and line, and those who have a more dramatic style of skating, but there's one thing for sure: no one has a smile like Mao. It was Mao skating with that beautiful smile and pure joy that made me fall in love with her skating.
An example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLNFcQvoKQ0

Wub
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:58 am

Liffey wrote:
It was Mao skating with that beautiful smile and pure joy that made me fall in love with her skating.
An example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLNFcQvoKQ0

Wub

Wow! That was an impressive performance. Thanks for posting that link.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:38 am

Liffey wrote:


Great post and I totally agree! I guess I enjoy both skaters who express themselves with their body movements and line, and those who have a more dramatic style of skating, but there's one thing for sure: no one has a smile like Mao. It was Mao skating with that beautiful smile and pure joy that made me fall in love with her skating.
An example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLNFcQvoKQ0

Wub

I just love Mao's performance here. It's so beautiful. The commentators are so correct in saying in this performance she becomes the music. I love how Mao skates so gracefully on the ice making all the difficult moves look so easy.

I also like the way Yuna performs. Yuna might impress viewers more with her drama and her facial expressions because she certainly captivates the first time you see her skate.

Mao's performance doesn't tire me out no matter how many times I watch her videos. It seems to be the opposite.

BTW, here's the very first performance of Mao that I saw and it made me a Mao fan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Yy7V-q5jc Wub


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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:08 pm

This doesn't seem to be creating too big of a buzz in FSU/GS (at least not yet) but it is creating a big stir in Japanese skating boards, so...

Looks like Plushy skated his SP at a local event in St. Petersburg with his usual competitive layout - the 4T-3T, 3Lz, 3A - and scored over 90! Shocked I'm well aware that Plushy isn't the most beloved of skaters by NA commentators and FS fans, but I'm positively gleeful that he appears to be in good shape for the season. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:39 pm

clovera wrote:
This doesn't seem to be creating too big of a buzz in FSU/GS (at least not yet) but it is creating a big stir in Japanese skating boards, so...

Looks like Plushy skated his SP at a local event in St. Petersburg with his usual competitive layout - the 4T-3T, 3Lz, 3A - and scored over 90! Shocked I'm well aware that Plushy isn't the most beloved of skaters by NA commentators and FS fans, but I'm positively gleeful that he appears to be in good shape for the season. Razz
Yes it's true! here're some pics
http://i27.tinypic.com/35jfoz6.jpg
http://i29.tinypic.com/2r3gmmo.jpg
http://i29.tinypic.com/2eekn4l.jpg
http://i25.tinypic.com/14u9i6c.jpg
I'm not sure if he's going to skate tomorrow,but anyway I'm going! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:48 pm

Thanks for the pics~ Swoon And have fun with the event! I love you

For anyone else interested, here's the entries/results site:
Like a Star @ heaven http://fsevents.narod.ru/event/FstLapSpb2009/index.htm Like a Star @ heaven
(Results haven't been updated yet)

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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:12 am

Thanks for the news clovera and polosatik!

Good for him! I'm not exactly his fan but I'd really like to see a man that can consistently land difficult jumps for a change.
Of course it's too early to tell whether he'll be able to achieve this throughout the season but if so, I certainly won't feel sorry for the other guys if he wins the OGM again.

Go Plushy! cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:11 pm

Today he did a very good program, to be honest, there's something to work on, but it's his first start. For the jump layout he did
4t-3t-2lo (fall on 2lo, it was a very silly fall actually Sweatdrop but the 4t-3t was outstanding
4t - awesome
2 - I think here he planned a 3a-3t
3lo
3
3l
3s
3f-2t
2
Music is tango, and only now i understood how I missed him. He has so much speed,personality, go Plushy! Dance
I thought that 3 l was in Seq with 3 s scratch I'm not sure though
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:24 pm

Woah!! affraid If Dai-chan doesn't come back with both his quads and 3As, I don't think there is anyone currently competing that can top that (is there? I can't think of anyone). For the most part, they struggle to put one quad in, if they try it at all. If our Plushy can keep away from injuries all season and skate well at the Olys, he is setting himself up for another nice finish in the middle of that podium. flower
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:26 pm

I really wish him to win it again.

Go Plush! study
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:04 am

A little clip about him, including 4t-3t and 3 a from his short ptogram) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU6kUKMWZiw
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:00 am

polosatik wrote:
A little clip about him, including 4t-3t and 3 a from his short ptogram) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU6kUKMWZiw
Beautiful 4T-3T! Yep! I'll be rooting for him in CoR, definitely.

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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:13 pm

Holy Yikes!!! ! I was never a big fan of him, because of his artistry, and style, but no one can deny, the boy can jump! I don't think any one else will be matching that program, jumping layout difficulty wise.
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PostSubject: Re: Technique advancement and different styles of artistry   Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:09 am

sapphiresky wrote:
clovera wrote:
I have always been more of tech-skater > artistic skater fanatic at heart, but a good balance between the two is always going to be the ideal. And Mao satisfies both requirements!

I agree with you clovera. Although I do appreciate beautiful programs, figure skating is a sport. Therefore, the technical elements must be there. The boundaries in sport are always changing, race time records always being broken etc. What Mao is doing is fantastic, it shows her athleticism.
It seems that to certain people, especially certain commentators, being too technically great isn't too good (unless you're a man of course, but I won't go into gender inequality arguments here silent ). They always use artistry against technique for female skaters (I noticed it happened between Kwan and Slutskaya), and I think it's horrible to put down someone's training (and so much of it) like that. I think that in figure skating, technique is more important than artistry. Artistry is of course important, but not as important. Again, it is a Sport! Mao does have both, but she is the superior athlete because she excels in the technical area.
I completely agree with your comments, not just because figure skating is/should be judged more as a sport, but also because artistry IS very subjective, and therefore for reasons of judging consistency and fairness as well...
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