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 Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory

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dlnnyc
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PostSubject: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:01 pm

i agree 100% percent with jack. something must be done. tarasova has to go or else mao has no chance of olympic gold. i know alot of you disagree but this is now or never. timing is everything. would love people's thoughts.

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/sp20091028it.html
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:53 pm

I think Mao should stay with Tatiana, but just as a coach. Mao should go to Lori again.

Who, me?

Tatiana does all the coaching and Lori does everything that has to do with music and choreography. I just want Mao back...

Sad, Lonely

And they shouldn't concentrate so much on the 3A.
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:15 pm

What an exquisite piece of... nonsense this so called journalist Gallagher after all is.
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:27 pm

Something seems amiss in Jack Gallagher's article. The one posted by summervie in another thread ( http://www.maoasadaforum.com/mao-chat-f5/tatiana-tarasova-s-interview-t528.htm ) seems far more insightful into the decision-making factors Tarasova and Mao considered.

For example, Tat stated in the interview that it was the JSF's decision to schedule Mao consecutively in TEB and CoR. Russia was probably a must, leaving the TEB choice as questionable (although I am guessing that the JSF wanted Mao to have an early head-to-head with YuNa.)

Quote :
It appears that Mao's entire season was configured for Tarasova's convenience. Mao was assigned to the first two Grand Prix events, which clearly were done so the 62-year-old coach would only have to travel to France and then be at home in Russia the following week.
Thus, this paragraph doesn't quite follow.

Also, what may have seemed like an "over-reliance on Mao's triple axel" makes a lot more sense when Tat confirms that Mao was able to do them in her practices. Tat's interview states that she is considering substituting the second 3axel in the FP with a 3-3, which could handily yield higher marks anyway, so I feel that Tarasova is not the problem (although I had my doubts, too, and which I now feel bad for.)

I think it would be unwise to scapegoat Tarasova. Some of the more unfortunate aspects of her working with Mao (the Japan-Russia travelling arrangements, the Grand Prix dates) were clearly out of her control. MikiAndoFans#1's suggestion of having someone possibly come in and help out may work, and wouldn't require dumping Tat completely, as bringing on someone totally different and forcing a drastic change might make things worse for Mao.

Also, I am sorry, but:
Quote :
Shizuka Arakawa left Tarasova for Nikolai Morozov during the Olympic campaign (in November 2005) and was rewarded for her gutsy decision with a gold medal.
This quote seems to suggest that Arakawa's success lay in her leaving Tarasova for Morozov. But not only does it not quantify how much Tarasova may have helped her...personally I feel that it was a combination of Arakawa doing well and her opponents falling apart. So that is a really bad argument Gallagher is making for his case.
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:49 pm

This quote seems to suggest that Arakawa's success lay in her leaving Tarasova for Morozov. But not only does it not quantify how much Tarasova may have helped her...personally I feel that it was a combination of Arakawa doing well and her opponents falling apart. So that is a really bad argument Gallagher is making for his case.


in defense of gallagher, maybe shizuka did leave tat because she wasnt satisfied or wasnt getting what she wanted from her (in person face time) or maybe they didnt get along. AND just maybe she did have more of a rapport with morosov. know one knows for sure. im just saying.
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:17 pm

I think removing TAT as Mao's coach at this stage would be counter-productive to Mao's efforts. The likelihood of finding her a coach that is familiar with her programs already is very small, and even if a coach could be found, it's reasonable to assume that it will take quite a bit of time for Mao to get used to the new coaching style.

Alternatively, Mao could go to the Olympics without a coach, like for 2008 Worlds. However, I don't think anyone should be seeking to take away Mao's support system right now, especially when you consider her mental state after TEB and COR.

TAT knows 'The Bells'. It was, some would argue, her creation, right down to the costume. Without Mao, however, that creation would only stay a wonderful idea, never realized and locked away in the recesses of her mind. Mao took this creation and showed the whole work what it looks like, albeit imperfectly.

The point I'm trying to make (I'm rambling because I have an essay due in two days) is that, as far as Mao's LP is concerned, Mao and TAT are inseparable. It's like firing the director three-quarters of the way through the movie.

Yes, yes, there are flaws in the coaching arrangments. If TAT could relocate to Japan, that would be the best for Mao, but because of her health and all those other reasons, that seems unlikely. I think what Mao should do is move to Russia. That way, she can see TAT in person every day.

So, no, I don't agree with this Gallagher bloke. Seems just like another one of those journalists trying to jump on the "fire Tarasova" wagon.
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:47 am

It's so easy to say- fire your coach! then someone has problems, remember Sasha's example, and also Carolina's, did it help? Or sorry I forgot Brian! We are fans, first of all and all these advices, change layout, buy new dress, change your coach, get new program- of course these are the main problems! ROTFLMAO Snow People are crazy...
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:41 am

dlnnyc wrote:

in defense of gallagher, maybe shizuka did leave tat because she wasnt satisfied or wasnt getting what she wanted from her (in person face time) or maybe they didnt get along. AND just maybe she did have more of a rapport with morosov. know one knows for sure. im just saying.

I watched a Shizuka documentary "The Road to Torino" recently and I was surprised at how similar Shizuka's situation was to Mao's - except instead of 3As Tatiana's goal for Shizuka was "all level 4s".
The documentary followed Shizuka through her GP series until Shizuka switched to Nikolai Morozov. TAT wanted Shizuka to achieve lvl4 on all spins and on the spiral sequence. Tarasova said that this is something only Shizuka could do, that in this aspect she can be the best in the World. But the features that TAT requested Shizuka to do were very difficult and Arakawa felt very uncomfortable doing them. She kept missing levels on spins and spirals. Also her programs, like Mao's, were very dark and heavy (though not as much hated as Mao's Bells).
Finally Shizuka decided to part with TAT. She said that she wanted her skating to be "Shizuka-rashii", "Shizuka-like", and that's why she switched to Nikolai. Ironically, Morozov gave Shizuka spins and spirals which got all lvl4 at Olympics. One of the last clips in the documentary was Morozov working with Shizuka on the famous "Shizuka spiral" - an Y spiral with no hand assist, something that truly only Shizuka could do (at that time).

It reminded me of how Machiko Yamada said that Mao's skating needs to become "Mao-rashii" again...

However, if Mao wants to stay with Tatiana, we should respect her decision. Switching coaches worked for Shizuka (and Miki, And Nobunari) because they made the decision on their own.

Furthermore, Gallagher hadn't done his research before suggesting Raphael. Firstly, Raphael has Sasha now. Secondly, Raphael couldn't help Mao nor Sasha with their flutzes, so he's not the best candidate for Mao right now. I have a feeling that Gallagher wrote the article just to stir sensation, without actually considering Mao's situation.
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:15 am

Oscilla wrote:
Furthermore, Gallagher hadn't done his research before suggesting Raphael. Firstly, Raphael has Sasha now. Secondly, Raphael couldn't help Mao nor Sasha with their flutzes, so he's not the best candidate for Mao right now. I have a feeling that Gallagher wrote the article just to stir sensation, without actually considering Mao's situation.

Didn't Mao and Raphael part on quite cold terms? I think it would be weird for Mao to go back to him.

And you're right, he has Sasha now.

I wonder how Sasha is going. It'll be quite interesting to see how she measures up to Yu-Na at Skate America. It'll be even more interesting if she makes it into Olympics next year. I hope she gets over her injury soon.
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:12 am

- well whoever it is, a change is needed. im sure any coach would love to have the opportunity to coach mao
- i do agree that it is not a "throw everything" out and start anew. but to tweak elements that play into mao's strengths, up her levels.
- and if (the bells) is indeed TAT's creation doesnt she know its about collaboration with the skater as well. thats how the best work is done. it has been proven over and over in every single area of life.
- nicolai was smart to work on shizuka's signature move. it is what stands out when you think of her. i guess that is why tat is pushing the 3A with mao. no one else in the world is doing it. but also she doesnt have the 3L to fall back on since it is a flutz or always is under rotated. in a way, mao has no choice but to do the 3A. (between a rock and a hard place)
- when it comes down to it, mao needs to love her program for she is the one on the ice at that moment and no one else is there and no one else can do the program for her. so comfort and trust has to be there.... and that is one of the reasons why i like the sport because it is all about you at that moment and one's mental state.
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:20 am

Again..We are fans and our advices are just for ourselves, Mao and her team know what to do and please stop this stupid comments like change your coach, get new program!If you are so smart why not you a figure skating coach? Very Mad


Last edited by polosatik on Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:27 am

polosatik wrote:
Again..We are fans and our advices is just for ourselves, Mao and her team know what to do and please stop this stupid comments like change your coach, get new program!If you are so smart why not you a figure skating coach? Very Mad

Very true. Very well said flower
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:40 am

dlnnyc wrote:
- and if (the bells) is indeed TAT's creation doesnt she know its about collaboration with the skater as well. thats how the best work is done. it has been proven over and over in every single area of life.

Really now, what would you have Mao do? Switch coaches at this very moment? Change the music for the LP and come up with a completely new program in time for the Olympics? I know you only want what's best for Mao, but really, we seem to be stuck in some sort of circular argument, saying the same thing over and over again.

It wouldn't hurt to have some faith in Mao and TAT. They've already gone this far - all we can do as fans is to support them in whatever decisions they've made and will make.

And all this thing about how 'The Bells' isn't really Mao. No matter who it was that came up with the choreography or the costumes, Mao is the one skating it so in a sense, it is Mao. Give the program to ten skaters and they'll skate it ten different ways. What Mao is having trouble with is the 3A, not the whole program. Her step sequence in 'The Bells' is exquisite.

And Mao said somewhere that she doesn't want to skate to cute music anymore. She's decided to grow up and we should let her.
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:59 am

chineseteacup wrote:
dlnnyc wrote:
- and if (the bells) is indeed TAT's creation doesnt she know its about collaboration with the skater as well. thats how the best work is done. it has been proven over and over in every single area of life.

And Mao said somewhere that she doesn't want to skate to cute music anymore. She's decided to grow up and we should let her.
Thumbs up! It's very crazy that people know better then Mao what suited her the most. It's her opinion and her life , please people leave her alone, all this bashing, advices hurt Mao. Please LEAVE HER ALONE EVERYBODY!
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:57 am

polosatik wrote:
chineseteacup wrote:
dlnnyc wrote:
- and if (the bells) is indeed TAT's creation doesnt she know its about collaboration with the skater as well. thats how the best work is done. it has been proven over and over in every single area of life.

And Mao said somewhere that she doesn't want to skate to cute music anymore. She's decided to grow up and we should let her.
Thumbs up! It's very crazy that people know better then Mao what suited her the most. It's her opinion and her life , please people leave her alone, all this bashing, advices hurt Mao. Please LEAVE HER ALONE EVERYBODY!

i totally hear you and you are totally right. it is true. it is her life and her programs. she must do what she feels is right. love that she has integrity!! im done voicing my opinions about this matter. it is what it is. thanks chineseteacup for making me realize this.
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:00 am

polosatik wrote:
chineseteacup wrote:
dlnnyc wrote:
- and if (the bells) is indeed TAT's creation doesnt she know its about collaboration with the skater as well. thats how the best work is done. it has been proven over and over in every single area of life.

And Mao said somewhere that she doesn't want to skate to cute music anymore. She's decided to grow up and we should let her.
Thumbs up! It's very crazy that people know better then Mao what suited her the most. It's her opinion and her life , please people leave her alone, all this bashing, advices hurt Mao. Please LEAVE HER ALONE EVERYBODY!

one more thing and then i am done. cute is one thing.. funereal dirges are another. there must be somewhere in the middle. trust me i dont like cutesy as well. i guess she thought fantasy for violin, fantaisie impromptu, clair de lune was cutesy... thats the last adjective id use to describe those compositions.
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:00 am

For some reason, despite all the recent failures, I have faith in Mao. She just needs someone professional to talk to to get rid of the nerves she has been feeling.
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:02 am

jirachiness wrote:
For some reason, despite all the recent failures, I have faith in Mao. She just needs someone professional to talk to to get rid of the nerves she has been feeling.

so is that all she needs? i have faith too but i think she needs to face reality or face the consequences. and it sounds like she has made her mind up so she needs to deal with the consequences of her decision.
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:15 am

dlnnyc wrote:
polosatik wrote:
chineseteacup wrote:
dlnnyc wrote:
- and if (the bells) is indeed TAT's creation doesnt she know its about collaboration with the skater as well. thats how the best work is done. it has been proven over and over in every single area of life.

And Mao said somewhere that she doesn't want to skate to cute music anymore. She's decided to grow up and we should let her.
Thumbs up! It's very crazy that people know better then Mao what suited her the most. It's her opinion and her life , please people leave her alone, all this bashing, advices hurt Mao. Please LEAVE HER ALONE EVERYBODY!

one more thing and then i am done. cute is one thing.. funereal dirges are another. there must be somewhere in the middle. trust me i dont like cutesy as well. i guess she thought fantasy for violin, fantaisie impromptu, clair de lune was cutesy... thats the last adjective id use to describe those compositions.

My favourite composer is actually Chopin (my favourite are his Nocturnes) but Rachmaninoff is a genius and it's slightly upsetting to hear his prelude being called a "funereal dirge". The harmonies are wonderful in Prelude in C Sharp Minor and are more powerful than "funereal".

To each her (or his) own, I guess.
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:50 am

dlnnyc wrote:
jirachiness wrote:
For some reason, despite all the recent failures, I have faith in Mao. She just needs someone professional to talk to to get rid of the nerves she has been feeling.

so is that all she needs? i have faith too but i think she needs to face reality or face the consequences. and it sounds like she has made her mind up so she needs to deal with the consequences of her decision.

I am not saying that this is all she needs. Every kind of athlete has differing needs. Of course there is a reality check that should be going on, but given that this is just the beginning, I still feel that Mao is going to be okay. I think that what is happening is that we as fans are putting too much pressure on one girl to do really well.

And yes, Mao was able to come to this with the decisions that she has made, and perhaps she might have to deal with those decisions. Then let her deal. What we need to do is support her despite the fact that these decisions turn out to be wrong. She still has the right to decide what she would do with her career.
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:42 am

chineseteacup wrote:

My favourite composer is actually Chopin (my favourite are his Nocturnes) but Rachmaninoff is a genius and it's slightly upsetting to hear his prelude being called a "funereal dirge". The harmonies are wonderful in Prelude in C Sharp Minor and are more powerful than "funereal".

To each her (or his) own, I guess.

Yes, but the music Mao is skating to is not what Rach intended. She is not skating to his original piano composition, and as far as I know, it was never intended to be a piano concerto by Rach, which is why the orchestration sounds flat to me. Furthermore, they've made a piece that was intended to be linear, repetitive. There is music (and it's quite common in electronica) that is MEANT to be repetitive because the music is layered vertically, or each progression has another layer of melody or sound added to it. Here is an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k_P-Fzt-jc

My problem with this music is that it's not meant to be structured that way; instead they edited it to repeat a few sections over and over and over again, which is not in line with the orginial composition; it's not layered vertically, it's supposed to be a linear construction. So I really don't think you should be offended by someone you "think" is criticizing Rach, when they're not, because what Mao's skating to is NOT the original composition.

Furthermore, I am a second-generation Russian-American, and my father is a huge fan of classical Russian composers, like Rach. He said he was beyond disappointed with Mao's LP music (and trust me, he's a huge skating fan AND a huge Mao fan), because they, quote, "butchered" the music. I don't dislike the music that much, but there you have it from someone I consider to be an expert on Rach (he also, by the way, loved Jeff Buttle's SP to the piano version).

That said, I've been a big complainer about Mao's plans this year, but now I'm done. Who am I (or anyone else for that matter, even TAT!) to know how Mao will skate in the Olympics? No one knows, not even Mao herself yet! She could come out and blow away the field (which I hope she can do!). She's performed very poorly in the GP series, but what does that matter? My main hope for her this season has always been that she would have a wonderful Olympic experience and I'm going to just hope (and believe!!!) that she will. Love Hearts Love Hearts Love Hearts
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:40 am

Liffey wrote:

Yes, but the music Mao is skating to is not what Rach intended. She is not skating to his original piano composition, and as far as I know, it was never intended to be a piano concerto by Rach, which is why the orchestration sounds flat to me. Furthermore, they've made a piece that was intended to be linear, repetitive. There is music (and it's quite common in electronica) that is MEANT to be repetitive because the music is layered vertically, or each progression has another layer of melody or sound added to it. Here is an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k_P-Fzt-jc

My problem with this music is that it's not meant to be structured that way; instead they edited it to repeat a few sections over and over and over again, which is not in line with the orginial composition; it's not layered vertically, it's supposed to be a linear construction. So I really don't think you should be offended by someone you "think" is criticizing Rach, when they're not, because what Mao's skating to is NOT the original composition.

Furthermore, I am a second-generation Russian-American, and my father is a huge fan of classical Russian composers, like Rach. He said he was beyond disappointed with Mao's LP music (and trust me, he's a huge skating fan AND a huge Mao fan), because they, quote, "butchered" the music. I don't dislike the music that much, but there you have it from someone I consider to be an expert on Rach (he also, by the way, loved Jeff Buttle's SP to the piano version).

That said, I've been a big complainer about Mao's plans this year, but now I'm done. Who am I (or anyone else for that matter, even TAT!) to know how Mao will skate in the Olympics? No one knows, not even Mao herself yet! She could come out and blow away the field (which I hope she can do!). She's performed very poorly in the GP series, but what does that matter? My main hope for her this season has always been that she would have a wonderful Olympic experience and I'm going to just hope (and believe!!!) that she will. Love Hearts Love Hearts Love Hearts

im totally with you. ive said my peace and piece...lol. done. out of our control. sit back and watch what happens. mao is that kind of skater... sp is her weakness. lets see what she does. makes it more exciting that way. i didnt know buttle skated to this music. he and mao are friends arent they?
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:55 pm

dlnnyc wrote:

im totally with you. ive said my peace and piece...lol. done. out of our control. sit back and watch what happens. mao is that kind of skater... sp is her weakness. lets see what she does. makes it more exciting that way. i didnt know buttle skated to this music. he and mao are friends arent they?

More than that though, who am I to say she's on the right path? Like Polosatik said before, we're not skating experts. All of the criticism I've had thus far has been out of concern for her, but we really don't know the situation behind closed doors.

I am just going to look forward to Japanese Nationals as the "real" start of Mao's season. Just like it's October, and none of this ever happened. She has all this time to make a fresh start, and if she puts herself in the right frame of mind, I know she can do it. Many Hearts
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:22 pm

I have been questioning for a long time wiether Tat was a good fit for Mao, but I have choosen not to "go there" until now. They seem to have a great personal relationship (realistically, who knows what goes on behind closed doors though), but maybe they aren't right for eachother in a professional sense. I know many of you like Tat for Mao, but this is not something you can just rule out.

I know one thing: I haven't liked Maos programs, music choices, and performances as well overall the past two seasons - the judges, and the skating world haven't either. At first I though that Tat was pushing Mao, and challenging her, and that was why I wasn't liking what I was seeing as much. But Mao is not getting any better. She's getting worse.

Now, I really have no idea if Tat is part of the the problem, the whole problem, or not the problem at all. All I'm saying is that Tat is not something that we can just rule out.

I would not be disapointed if Mao were to change coaches in the middle of the season, or went back to Raphael. I respect her decision, whatever it may be. I trust that she knows what she needs, and what is best for her, and will do it.

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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:53 pm

Liffey wrote:
My problem with this music is that it's not meant to be structured that way; instead they edited it to repeat a few sections over and over and over again, which is not in line with the orginial composition; it's not layered vertically, it's supposed to be a linear construction. So I really don't think you should be offended by someone you "think" is criticizing Rach, when they're not, because what Mao's skating to is NOT the original composition.

I guess you speak for dlnnyc on this forum as well as for yourself, yes? Because the language of "funereal dirges" doesn't leave much for interpretation. Yes, the music Mao is skating to isn't Rachmaninoff's original arrangment and yes, the middle section would have added some contrast, but the orchestral version adds presence and atmosphere whereas the piano version, on the contrary, would have seemed "flat" on the ice.

And please. If I don't react to what I "think", what am I supposed to react to? Everyone that posts on this forum replies to what they "think" another member is saying. If I could telepathically uncover other posters' intentions, there wouldn't be a need for an online forum.

I speak for myself, which is what I should be doing. You, on the other hand, should perhaps consult dlnnyc on what was actually intended through "funereal dirges" before criticizing me for reacting, quite appropriately, to what I "think".
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PostSubject: Re: Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic Glory   

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