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 Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics

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Aibhlin
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:44 am

I would love if Asada skated to Hisaishi music!

I wonder whether music selection in fs would gravitate more towards contemporary music if athletes had more say in the matter of their program compositions...
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:47 pm

Aibhlin wrote:
I would love if Asada skated to Hisaishi music!

I wonder whether music selection in fs would gravitate more towards contemporary music if athletes had more say in the matter of their program compositions...
Absolutely agree. I think soundtracks to mistery movies also can suit Mao! For example. Alice in Wonderland)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9aM1PSUz_M
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:27 pm

Today I was thinking that I would really like to see Mao get level 4's for her step sequences consistently--and I think that's something that she of all people can do! Yep!

TAT always creates such intricate, complex footwork for Mao, but getting level 4 doesn't seem to be the goal...? I think it would be great if Mao worked with a choreographer who knows the rules for the step sequences levels really well so they can put something awesome together--and allow Mao to pick up some well-deserved points. Very Happy

By the way, in the "Japan Ladies Figure Skating Fanbook 2010," the interviewer says something like, "I heard you're good at compulsory figures," and Mao responds that she not only is good at them, but she really enjoys them. No surprise there, since she's so good with the steps! flower

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:51 am

Batsuchan wrote:


By the way, in the "Japan Ladies Figure Skating Fanbook 2010," the interviewer says something like, "I heard you're good at compulsory figures," and Mao responds that she not only is good at them, but she really enjoys them. No surprise there, since she's so good with the steps! flower

I've never heard about this book. Is it published every year? Is skating really that big in Japan?

I think Asada probably has the most intricate footwork out of any of the ladies today...
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:57 am

I've just been to the ISU discussion board (http://forums.isu.org/) again, though I hate almost everyone in that forum. I keep going there though I don't want to, because there are so many posts which misunderstand and lack respect to Mao; I can't help feeling someone should defend her.

Though I do feel as Aibhlin that Tats' complex programs and the weight Mao put on her 3As this season resulted in her lack of speed, I think aoi88 has a point too, that less transitions makes skaters look slower than they actually are.

I think that transitions have the effect of not boring the audience between jumps and spins etc., but for a program created for music like 'Bells...', I think too many transitions would've been a bit too 'noisy', if you know what I mean. And although 'Bells...' didn't work out so well in GP series, by Nats I do think the program was completed in the correct way; for example, the removal of the hand raising in the 3-2-2. It became more of a smplistic program, but it fit the music better that way, allowing Mao more mental room to afford putting her enegy into the artistry.

I understand speed is important in figure-skating, for it has the greatest of impact towards the audience who see it live. I was astounded by Lysacheks' speed when I saw him live and I'm sure I'd feel the same if I saw Yuna live as they say she's really fast. Speed is unquestionably one of the important skills in the sport. But, when you think about artistry and expression of the music, I'm not sure if speed should be a top priority element. When I saw Mao perform in Nats, I didn't think she was all that fast, but her speed matched the music perfectly. So putting too much weight on skating fast, could maybe sometimes ruin the artistry, according to what you're trying to express, IMO.

Now in the ISU discussion board, everyone keeps on saying Mao sacrificed her speed and all her other jumps just for her 3As. Some even go as far as to say, her artistry was damaged. Those who say those things are hard core know-it-all figure fans, but they know almost nothing about Mao, for they seem to have been brainwashed by some articles, that they actually believe Mao is ONLY going to be focusing on quads next season. I've wrote over and over, that although Mao shows interest in quads, she said she will be working on her other jumps more next season. But they practically ignore that information and keep accusing her of being blind to think she can win next time if she has a quad. They treat her as if she knows less about the sport than they do, and it really burns me!

Okay, I do admit 'Bells...' may not have been the best music for her, and the original program up till the GP series was a bit too much. This wasn't a great season for her, and if Tat considered the scoring system more in choreography, Mao might have won OGM. But I think it's a little too early to conclude Tat and her programs did no good for Mao. A good athlete, or simply a wise person can learn from any kind of experience, be it good or bad. Although Mao didn't succeed in rankings and scores this season, what she's achieved through it will definitely make her a better skater in the future IMO. I have faith in Mao that she is the type of person who does not waste anything she absorbs.

Right now, my only hopes for her is that she'll manage perfect performances both in SP&FP at Worlds, so that people would realize what wonderful qualities she truely achieved during this season.

Thanks for reading flower
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:51 am

PochinkoPotanko are you Shinku? cat I've also been to ISU forum a couple of times and was annoyed at some of the posters' opinions. I really wanted to defend her but for some reason, the board still haven't activated my account. confused There was one poster that said that there was bascially nothing Mao could have done to win the OGM if Yuna skated clean, since before injuries hindered Yuna's potential. Well, I agree injuries did hinder her potential, but it seemed to imply that it was the only reason Mao was doing better than Yuna during those years, which I don't agree. Because Mao was getting higher PCS than Yuna at both 2007 and 2008 Worlds. In 2008, in the LP, Mao fell on her axel while Yuna skated a near clean program, but Mao still had the higher PCS. This meant that the judges liked Mao's program more at that time. Yuna always had higher GOE than Mao but Mao's layout were more difficult and she was doing more triples than the other ladies during those years. Yuna won the GPF events in 2006 and 2007 in part due to Mao's mistakes. Back then, I don't think Yuna would have had the edge if they both skated cleanly.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:32 pm

I do think Mao needs to bring back the triples. Lutz and salchow will benefit her a lot. I do not think that beating YuNa is impossible because I know she can do it. She just needs to find the stability within her jumps.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:27 pm

I agree with you Genie, she can do it if she lands the 3As like she did in Vancouver. The problem is that judges don't agree with us.

Mao needs to gain confidence in her jumps. Yuna's jumps are always secure, her landings are long and steady, even when she underrotates. OTOH, Mao often shakes her foot a bit when she lands to get stable on the ice, I guess. It's kinda weird and not really good-looking.

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:29 pm

alyssa wrote:
I agree with you Genie, she can do it if she lands the 3As like she did in Vancouver. The problem is that judges don't agree with us.

Mao needs to gain confidence also. Yuna's jumps are always secure, her landins are long, even when she underrotates. OTOH, Mao often shakes her foot a bit when she lands to get stable on the ice, I guess. It's kinda weird and not really good-looking.

What I notice is that Mao's jumps are no longer getting speed out of the jump. It seems that the landings are always shaky.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:56 pm

I'm not sure if this is posted in other threads, but TAT said in a russian interview on the radio recently that she will NOT participate in training her anymore, because she didn't get to be "golden". This is different from reports that she will be an 'overall' consultant next season.

Can someone confirm if TAT's decision is NOT to do anything at all w/Mao?

Is there another thread I'm not seeing devoted to the coaching situation?

thanks! Question
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:03 pm

Artistry wrote:
I'm not sure if this is posted in other threads, but TAT said in a russian interview on the radio recently that she will NOT participate in training her anymore, because she didn't get to be "golden". This is different from reports that she will be an 'overall' consultant next season.

Oh wow, that sounds pretty extreme Shocked
I don't know much of TAT's history, but I hope she's not being too hard on herself about this. I know TAT really believe Mao could get gold, and I hope she doesn't feel guilty about anything.
I think it would be nice if they still kept in some kind of contact after this... :/
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:17 pm

Did you hear she saying it? Or was it just a report? OMG!

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:22 pm

I think there are a lot of contradictory reports coming out. One is that TAT said she will no longer be Mao's coach, because she "failed" her. But then there are Japanese reports saying that TAT renewed her contract but this time as "advisor and choreographer". Mao herself said her coaching situation is uncertain, so I am not sure what's going on. scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:33 pm

Artistry wrote:
I'm not sure if this is posted in other threads, but TAT said in a russian interview on the radio recently that she will NOT participate in training her anymore, because she didn't get to be "golden". This is different from reports that she will be an 'overall' consultant next season.

Can someone confirm if TAT's decision is NOT to do anything at all w/Mao?

Is there another thread I'm not seeing devoted to the coaching situation?

thanks! Question

I agree with MaoMaoRevolution. I hope Tatiana isn't blaming herself for anything.

Drama!

If Tatiana leaves Mao, who will be Mao's coach?

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:40 pm

She says that she will not train Mao anymore, because she could not make Mao first, and her trainer father (in hockey) used to say that 'second place' is grounds to fire a coach. These are exact words.

In general, for those who read russian, this is a really informative interview with her. She bashed the new judging system and points, russian administrators who aren't willing to challenge it, increased weight of transitions (in her mind, these don't propel the sport to greater heights), etc.

TAT thinks Mao won the SP (not in points, but in reality) and Kim's first place was a result of taking her out of Asia so that she could focus on training with no distractions. Tat also says she isn't accustomed to the big role mothers play with some skaters from Asia, that she isn't used to listening, as a professional, to what mothers think should be done.

She also said she had never trained Mao at 100% for last two years.

http://www.echo.msk.ru/programs/lex/661023-echo/
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:06 pm

Artistry wrote:
She says that she will not train Mao anymore, because she could not make Mao first, and her trainer father (in hockey) used to say that 'second place' is grounds to fire a coach. These are exact words.

In general, for those who read russian, this is a really informative interview with her. She bashed the new judging system and points, russian administrators who aren't willing to challenge it, increased weight of transitions (in her mind, these don't propel the sport to greater heights), etc.

TAT thinks Mao won the SP (not in points, but in reality) and Kim's first place was a result of taking her out of Asia so that she could focus on training with no distractions. Tat also says she isn't accustomed to the big role mothers play with some skaters from Asia, that she isn't used to listening, as a professional, to what mothers think should be done.

She also said she had never trained Mao at 100% for last two years.
http://www.echo.msk.ru/programs/lex/661023-echo/

Well we all knew she wasn't training Mao the whole time. I am really wondering who is making the decisions for Mao during these last 2 years. Is Team Mao really letting Mao make all the decisions herself? I feel TAT is implying something about Mao's mom with her statement on big role mothers, and I did hear one report that said TAT and Mao's mom were having disagreements. For Mao's sake, I feel she needs someone with more experience to help her make some of the decisions. Yuna has several people making smart startegic decisions for her, and it worked for her.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:33 pm

Artistry wrote:
She also said she had never trained Mao at 100% for last two years.

As much as I respect TAT, this statement disturbs me.
I know she hasn't been able to be with Mao all the time, but that implies that Mao was never trained to her full potential and that TAT gave less than she could have into Mao's skating these 2 years. It makes it sound like Mao was never able to reach her 100% ability.
Now, I guess we also have to keep in mind that TAT's sister died, she's been sick and her family has been sick, too--it's been rough for both of them it seems.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:43 pm

MaoMaoRevolution wrote:
Artistry wrote:
She also said she had never trained Mao at 100% for last two years.

As much as I respect TAT, this statement disturbs me.
I know she hasn't been able to be with Mao all the time, but that implies that Mao was never trained to her full potential and that TAT gave less than she could have into Mao's skating these 2 years. It makes it sound like Mao was never able to reach her 100% ability.
Now, I guess we also have to keep in mind that TAT's sister died, she's been sick and her family has been sick, too--it's been rough for both of them it seems.

Maybe Tatiana said that because she wasn't able to be there for Mao at all times.

scratch

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:18 pm

This isn't the first time contradictory reports are comings out, so I think it's best to wait for summervie or Asya to confirm this, in addition to waiting for more articles to pop up; also, I want to add that just because TAT apparently talked about not participating in Mao's training doesn't necessarily mean the choreographer/consultant contract for next season has been cut off (these are two different things IMO). Yep!

The 100% statement makes total sense, too - we all know about TAT's health and family problems, and the lack of one-on-one training time that resulted from this and Mao's decision to remain in Japan.

aoi88 wrote:
I am really wondering who is making the decisions for Mao during these last 2 years. Is Team Mao really letting Mao make all the decisions herself?
What makes you say that? The fact that Mao stayed with the 3Ax3 strategy is pretty telling, since even TAT questioned Mao if she wanted to stick with that layout, nevermind the fact that the Japanese media and select Japanese "sports analysts" have been nagging Mao and the JSF for much of this season to dump such a risky approach (and get rid of TAT in the process, which is exactly what Jack Gallagher and others have suggested as we are all familiar with). Neutral

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:40 pm

aoi88 wrote:
PochinkoPotanko are you Shinku? cat I've also been to ISU forum a couple of times and was annoyed at some of the posters' opinions. I really wanted to defend her but for some reason, the board still haven't activated my account. confused There was one poster that said that there was bascially nothing Mao could have done to win the OGM if Yuna skated clean, since before injuries hindered Yuna's potential. Well, I agree injuries did hinder her potential, but it seemed to imply that it was the only reason Mao was doing better than Yuna during those years, which I don't agree. Because Mao was getting higher PCS than Yuna at both 2007 and 2008 Worlds. In 2008, in the LP, Mao fell on her axel while Yuna skated a near clean program, but Mao still had the higher PCS. This meant that the judges liked Mao's program more at that time. Yuna always had higher GOE than Mao but Mao's layout were more difficult and she was doing more triples than the other ladies during those years. Yuna won the GPF events in 2006 and 2007 in part due to Mao's mistakes. Back then, I don't think Yuna would have had the edge if they both skated cleanly.

Am I Shinku? Well, um...oh, who am I kidding? Yeah, I'm Shinku! affraid
I do remember too, someone saying there was no way Mao could've won OGM. But from what that person had been writing in the past (i.e. Evan winning gold is the hugest insult to mens' skating), I think he or she was being sarcastic about the present system, not Mao. Although I like Plush much better, I don't agree with him about Evan winning. And I'm not so much against the current judging system either. I'm only against the judges who hand out mysterious GOEs, both plus and minus.

But in anycase, ISU board is a total JOKE! Twisted Evil
I can never understand why those people there actually believe they know what's best for the skaters, more than coaches and the skaters themselves. Sometimes it's possible to see things more clearly from a distance, but I think comments like: whoever is a less 'smarter' skater than whoever else, and other stuff like that, is too arrogant a critisizm for non-skaters to say. And sadly those are the kinds of things more or less said about Mao on that board.

I of course agree with most of you here, that Mao should get her other jumps back. I think the main reason they didn't do that for Olys was because Tat wasn't able to spend more time with Mao because of her and her familys' health conditions. They really didn't have much of a choice but to stick to the jumps Mao felt more confident with.

I read in the papers here in Japan that she'll be looking for a Japanese coach for next season. No names mentioned yet, though. I kinda think that our skating union would be considering Sato (dad) as a candidate since Yukari is retiring. I'd prefer Nagakubo, cause he did manage to make Akiko achieve all the jumps (although she does get attention marks on some). But if Akiko isn't thinking of retiring yet, I'd want Nagakubo to concentrate on her, since I love Akiko too.

No Morozov, please! Bad idea!

Lastly, I don't blame Tat for Mao not winning gold. She's not so good with the new system, but with the judges being the way they are thesedays, getting Mao silver was pretty much as any coach could've done IMO. And you have to admit, as much as Tat couldn't leave Russia for family reasons, Mao didn't want to leave Japan that much either. That was one of the reasons they couldn't train that much together. I believe Tat really cared about Mao, and did all the best she can under her circumstances. Alot of people in ISU board say Mao should've sticked with Arutunian, cause she won Worlds when he was coaching her. But we all know Mao was far more distant from him compared to Tat in various ways, by the time she went to Worlds that season.

Btw, I've read somewhere that Orser and Yuna had invited judges to dinner before the Olys, is that true? Is that allowed? This info wasn't written or said in any media as far as I know, so it shouldn't be trusted easily. Someone had only written it on the net in the past, but if anyone knows the truth, please share.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:03 am

clovera wrote:
This isn't the first time contradictory reports are comings out, so I think it's best to wait for summervie or Asya to confirm this, in addition to waiting for more articles to pop up; also, I want to add that just because TAT apparently talked about not participating in Mao's training doesn't necessarily mean the choreographer/consultant contract for next season has been cut off (these are two different things IMO). Yep!

The 100% statement makes total sense, too - we all know about TAT's health and family problems, and the lack of one-on-one training time that resulted from this and Mao's decision to remain in Japan.

aoi88 wrote:
I am really wondering who is making the decisions for Mao during these last 2 years. Is Team Mao really letting Mao make all the decisions herself?
What makes you say that? The fact that Mao stayed with the 3Ax3 strategy is pretty telling, since even TAT questioned Mao if she wanted to stick with that layout, nevermind the fact that the Japanese media and select Japanese "sports analysts" have been nagging Mao and the JSF for much of this season to dump such a risky approach (and get rid of TAT in the process, which is exactly what Jack Gallagher and others have suggested as we are all familiar with). Neutral

I know that. It was a rhetorical question. But I also agree with Pochinko that Mao probably didn't have a choice because TAT wasn't with her most of the time. A coach can make suggestions but if he/she is not there most of the time, it's kind hard to carry it out. I just feel that besides TAT who is away, there doesn't seem to be anyone else in her team with experience that could help Mao in making decisions.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:58 am

I just read TAT's interview and gosh! How people can get everything wrong! No Interviewer:" By the way, congratulations on your success at this Olympics, because your girl got silver!"
TAT:" Yes, I have relations with her, I prepared her for two years.Not 100 % like this was with my students(Yagudin etc), but I consulted her, I was making her programs, and I suggested her to do 2 triple axels, and she did them with me at practice for the first time. Because I considered it was a mainframe world record. I'm very proud that I'm 63 years old and took part in Olympics, and that my girl, unfortunately, not first... Like my father said, before, in hockey, for the second place was disсharge, and I follow this now. Because I decided not to work with this girl. That's how I decided, because I can't make her "golden"."
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:27 pm

aoi88 wrote:
I know that. It was a rhetorical question. But I also agree with Pochinko that Mao probably didn't have a choice because TAT wasn't with her most of the time.
Ah, got it. Sorry about that. cat

It's a pretty difficult line I think. As far as *this* season is concerned, though, I still think it was for the best that Mao was able to express what she wanted out of her skating and was able to stick with it (as much as people in other forums disagree and think otherwise). I know I mentioned it multiple times already, but had the JSF or an outsider butt in and made decisions - I would think things would have turned out for the worst. And really...what decisions were there to make? Change programs mid-season to something that is supposedly more judge-friendly? Reduce the number of 3As and abruptly reinstate the 3-3, lutz, or salchow? Tweak choreography? Alter Mao's training regime? The former two are too much of a gamble, while the latter two have indeed taken place. Mao's team have done everything they could.

After a difficult GP series Mao went on to extend her Nats win, grab the 4CC title, and land three 3As at the Olys which some of the men would have liked to achieve. I'm still a bit eh with the level of scrutiny Mao is coming under this season - like PochinkoPotanko mentioned, there were just as many struggles taking place when Mao was with Rafael, and by the time she won Worlds 08 he was no longer in the picture. The cynical side of me can't help but wonder why the critics weren't as loud back then but are blowing their foghorns now. Faint2

In the meantime, I'm just looking forward to Mao's performance at Worlds which starts next week. Yep!

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:30 pm

polosatik wrote:
I just read TAT's interview and gosh! How people can get everything wrong! No Interviewer:" By the way, congratulations on your success at this Olympics, because your girl got silver!"
TAT:" Yes, I have relations with her, I prepared her for two years.Not 100 % like this was with my students(Yagudin etc), but I consulted her, I was making her programs, and I suggested her to do 2 triple axels, and she did them with me at practice for the first time. Because I considered it was a mainframe world record. I'm very proud that I'm 63 years old and took part in Olympics, and that my girl, unfortunately, not first... Like my father said, before, in hockey, for the second place was disсharge, and I follow this now. Because I decided not to work with this girl. That's how I decided, because I can't make her "golden"."

Who are the people that are "getting everything wrong"? I simply decided not to translate the whole paragraph, but the essence and meaning of her statement about "not 100%" remains the same. Same thing for her deciding to leave because she couldn't get Mao to be first place, in line with her father's philosophy in hockey.
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polosatik
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:50 pm

Artistry wrote:
polosatik wrote:
I just read TAT's interview and gosh! How people can get everything wrong! No Interviewer:" By the way, congratulations on your success at this Olympics, because your girl got silver!"
TAT:" Yes, I have relations with her, I prepared her for two years.Not 100 % like this was with my students(Yagudin etc), but I consulted her, I was making her programs, and I suggested her to do 2 triple axels, and she did them with me at practice for the first time. Because I considered it was a mainframe world record. I'm very proud that I'm 63 years old and took part in Olympics, and that my girl, unfortunately, not first... Like my father said, before, in hockey, for the second place was disсharge, and I follow this now. Because I decided not to work with this girl. That's how I decided, because I can't make her "golden"."

Who are the people that are "getting everything wrong"? I simply decided not to translate the whole paragraph, but the essence and meaning of her statement about "not 100%" remains the same. Same thing for her deciding to leave because she couldn't get Mao to be first place, in line with her father's philosophy in hockey.
I wasn't talking about you, don't be mad Razz
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Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics
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