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 Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics

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alyssa
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:26 am

You misunderstood me. I'm sure Tat never forced Mao to use any program. What I heard was that she had a Bells program (and even wanted Michelle to skate to it in the past) and I believe she sort of convinced Mao to do it. Being determined a person Mao is, she wanted to use the program till the end and prove it was good. Tat should have thought beforehand that Bells was not Mao's style.

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:42 am

Quote :
Again, I'd hate to see Mao playing to the system (Like Yuna and Evan), for me, it's cowardliness. But playing against it (like she's been doing) is nonsense. A balance is essential. I personally liked her much more up to 2008, when her lightness and grace were highlighted, however, she does seem to want a change. However Bells is a bit to much for her. But I'll go with her till the very end, and may God bless us.

Yu-na does not deserve to be compared to Evan. The girl did a 3lutz/3toe in the short and a 3lutz/3toe and a double axel/3toe in the long. These are hardly "cowardly" passes for a woman. She was the only woman to land a 3lutz/3toe in the competition. No Olympic champion female did a 3/3 in the short before her.

IF Yu-na had wanted to play to the system she could have done what Miki did which was to drop the 3/3 and the double axel/3toe in the long and go for double axel sequences that all of the other women were doing. Now that would have been a cowardly layout. But by no stretch of the imagine is a 3lutz/3toe and a double axel/3toe cowardly for a woman.

But this system is about points and figuring out a way where you could earn the most points is what you do to win. In any system, you have to be willing to do what it takes to win. Katerina Witt use to study her opponents programs with her coach, to figure out exactly what she had to do to win. When Arakawa's Olympic programs weren't well received by the judges, she changed them, to help her win.

The system absolultely needs to start rewarding risk more. But that really doesn't just go for Mao. Kim's 3/3s should be rewarded more too.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:57 am

Batsuchan wrote:
(Welcome to the forum, darlingdaydream! flower )

thanks! you are too kind, Batsuchan!
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:12 pm

bekalc wrote:
Yu-na does not deserve to be compared to Evan. The girl did a 3lutz/3toe in the short and a 3lutz/3toe and a double axel/3toe in the long. These are hardly "cowardly" passes for a woman. She was the only woman to land a 3lutz/3toe in the competition. No Olympic champion female did a 3/3 in the short before her.

I'm not referring only to jumps. Everything in her programs is designed to get points. However I still feel three 2As is just to safe. Plus, she's been doing the same jumps forever and ever, no challenge (Correct me if I'm wrong, but she changed from 3F-3T to 3Lz-3T because of the edge problem). But this is not about Yuna. Sorry for bringing her into this thread. Let's discuss Mao's strategy.

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:03 pm

alyssa wrote:
bekalc wrote:
Yu-na does not deserve to be compared to Evan. The girl did a 3lutz/3toe in the short and a 3lutz/3toe and a double axel/3toe in the long. These are hardly "cowardly" passes for a woman. She was the only woman to land a 3lutz/3toe in the competition. No Olympic champion female did a 3/3 in the short before her.

I'm not referring only to jumps. Everything in her programs is created to get points. However I still feel three 2As is just to safe. Plus, she's been doing the same jumps forever and ever, no challenge (Correct me if I'm wrong, but she changed from 3F-3T to 3Lz-3T because of the edge problem). But this is not about Yuna. Sorry for bringing her into this thread. Let's discuss Mao's strategy.

Well so is doing a double axel instead of a 3lutz in Mao's case. Or a double axel instead of a 3flip in Plushenko's case. In all cases people gave up points on a element for whatever reason they weren't comfortable with and replaced it with an easy double axel....

Besides only two people in the top 7 attempted 5 different types of triple jumps. That was Joannie (3rd) and Rachael Flatt (7th). Everyone else replaced their missing jump with double axel.

I'm not sure what more Kim could do to change up her layouts. The 3lutz/3toe was a big risk for her, reasons for doing so or not. I guess she could do two 3/3s but that would literally get her no new base points. Orser said in an interview that learning the 3axel would be the way now for Yu-na to improve technically. Now whether she can learn it now, is another thing. They were working on it a few years back, but stopped when she got plagued with all kinds of injuries. Adding in the 3loop would be nice, but I think its always going to be a psychological issue for Yu-na in competition. She lands it in practice though.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:08 pm

I guess the replacement in Mao's case was the 3T, because she always did one 2A. It's a jump that always gets GOEs when done correctly, that's why I find too many 2As a little cowardly. But that's just MHO.

What Yuna could do to improve her layout depends on her training and her psychological state, as you said. But for the high scores and hype she's been getting recently, I just think her layout is poor. =/ That's why I compared her with Lysacek, who, looking from this point of view, wasn't coward either, since he had 3Lz-3T, two 3A and the other triples.

The point is the scores they've been receiving for what they've been showing.

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:40 pm

alyssa wrote:
I guess the replacement in Mao's case was the 3T, because she always did one 2A. It's a jump that always gets GOEs when done correctly, that's why I find too many 2As a little cowardly. But that's just MHO.

What Yuna could do to improve her layout depends on her training and her psychological state, as you said. But for the high scores and hype she's been getting recently, I just think her layout is poor. =/ That's why I compared her with Lysacek.

But only one of Yu-na's double axels is in replacement for another triple. The other double axel is a requirement. Now Yu-na could have chosen to do a single 3flip instead of the double axel/3toe. Now the 3flip is shaky for her, but before it use to be a really stable jump. I think she's actually taking more risk with the double axel/3toe.

But as for Mao because she's doing 2 triple axels, she doesnt have to do a double axel. A 3toe, 3sal, or 3lutz is worth more than a double axel.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:42 pm

bekalc wrote:
alyssa wrote:
bekalc wrote:
Yu-na does not deserve to be compared to Evan. The girl did a 3lutz/3toe in the short and a 3lutz/3toe and a double axel/3toe in the long. These are hardly "cowardly" passes for a woman. She was the only woman to land a 3lutz/3toe in the competition. No Olympic champion female did a 3/3 in the short before her.

I'm not referring only to jumps. Everything in her programs is created to get points. However I still feel three 2As is just to safe. Plus, she's been doing the same jumps forever and ever, no challenge (Correct me if I'm wrong, but she changed from 3F-3T to 3Lz-3T because of the edge problem). But this is not about Yuna. Sorry for bringing her into this thread. Let's discuss Mao's strategy.

Well so is doing a double axel instead of a 3lutz in Mao's case. Or a double axel instead of a 3flip in Plushenko's case. In all cases people gave up points on a element for whatever reason they weren't comfortable with and replaced it with an easy double axel....

Besides only two people in the top 7 attempted 5 different types of triple jumps. That was Joannie (3rd) and Rachael Flatt (7th). Everyone else replaced their missing jump with double axel.

I'm not sure what more Kim could do to change up her layouts. The 3lutz/3toe was a big risk for her, reasons for doing so or not. I guess she could do two 3/3s but that would literally get her no new base points. Orser said in an interview that learning the 3axel would be the way now for Yu-na to improve technically. Now whether she can learn it now, is another thing. They were working on it a few years back, but stopped when she got plagued with all kinds of injuries. Adding in the 3loop would be nice, but I think its always going to be a psychological issue for Yu-na in competition. She lands it in practice though.
Seriously,I think the chance of Yuna learning 3A is the same as Mao learning quad. And the possibility of they would succeed is also the same.
If Kim really plans to stay, IMO,she needs to add something to her jump layout. Judges won't like a skater without any change.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:48 pm

alyssa wrote:
I guess the replacement in Mao's case was the 3T, because she always did one 2A. It's a jump that always gets GOEs when done correctly, that's why I find too many 2As a little cowardly. But that's just MHO.

I don't think that doing 3 2A in the LP is cowardly. If it was a jump that replaced other triples, or if it was just a "basic" 2A, then maybe it wouldn't be very challenging. But if it's done out of different entrances, and in different configurations (i.e. as a solo jump, as a first part of the combination, as the second part of a sequence, etc.), it isn't just "repeating" a jump. Not everyone who can do 2A can do 2A-2T-2L(tano) or 2A-3T out of a spreadeagle. Mastering a jump with different variations/entrances is really difficult and takes a lot of time, even if it's just a 2A.

Speaking of which, I really liked the use of 2As in Mirai's program. She used 2A in all 3 configurations I mentioned above: as a solo jump, as the first part of a 2A-3T combo and as the second part of a sequence. For me, it's not a CoP-whoring. It's a message to the judges and fans that:
1. She can do a double axel.
2. She can do a double axel with such a smooth landing that tacking a triple on it's landing is no challenge for me.
3. Her 2A is so solid that she doesn't need a long approach into it and can execute it immediately after landing a triple.

Now if a skater can land those out of a spreadeagle, an InaB, a reverse spreadeagle, a hydroblade, a back spiral, or with a difficult air position... That's an entire new level of awesome.

bekalc wrote:
I dont' think anyone is saying Mao should do two 3/3s and no 3axel. I think people liked the one 3axel and 2 3/3s layout. Partly because that layout opened up jumping passes, and it showed that she mastered more than just one difficult jumping element. It was more impressive.
(...)
I agree.
I think it will take a lot of time before Mao will be able to master two 3-3s again, but I would like to see it as Mao's long-term goal.
As for the next season, I would like Mao to go for something like:
3A
2A-3T
3Lz
---
3L-2L-2L(tano)
3F+2A
3L
3F

49.97 base value
Then work on getting 3L-3L in there. Next season, 3S and/or 3F-3T.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:53 pm

Just realized that a double axel is 3.5 points. Basically if you tac a double axel to the end of 3 jumps= 3 3-3...?!
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:57 pm

About the coward subject direction this discussion has gone:

I don't think that any one of the medalist in any of the four disciplins had a cowardly jump layout/ program. We'e some a bit gutsier than others? Did some play it a bit safer than others? Yes. But by no means did anyone of them have anything short of difficult programs.

Yuna has had a different strategy than Mao: Mao has always tried to push herself, and try new things, while Yuna sticks to what she does best, and tries to perfect that. Yuna's strategy was rewarded this time, but it won't work forever. Not only might the judges start loosing respect for that eventually, but the sport is always being pushed to new boundaries. In other words, she will be passed up sooner or later. I'm sure she is aware of this though, and since she has her OGM now, she has nothing left to gain, but to make herself better. Yuna's jumps/layouts haven't changed much for a long time, but I wouldn't count on her to continue to play the same way forever.

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:16 pm

Guys, that was just my opinion. You don't need to get angry. Anyway, I was referring to the program as a whole. Maybe "coward" is a too strong word. I just meant that playing according to the system is safe and not Mao's style. Nor what I would follow either. I'd prefer a program that is designed under my goals, my personal ideal. Of course, they're not completely possible, but kissing CoP's butt (as someone here said) IMHO doesn't show too much personality. As I said before, it is possible to find a balance.

Anyway, let's discuss Mao, please.

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:33 pm

alyssa wrote:

Anyway, let's discuss Mao, please.

Agreed- note title of thread.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:59 pm

sapphiresky wrote:
alyssa wrote:

Anyway, let's discuss Mao, please.

Agreed- note title of thread.

im BACK!

- dont be stupid people, of course mao needs to follow CoP. they went against it the past 2 years and look what happened? she regressed. come out of the forest bambis!
- the new coach will be a tremendous step in the right direction. choose wisely mao. think strategically.
- mao also needs to think GOE!
- enhance your lightness and lyrical quality, 3A and intense step sequences.
- be UNBEATABLE!
- skate to the audience, invite them in.
- better music... and not swan lake or concerto de arunjuez or a tango. be original and unique
- more modern attire
- EVOLVE
- exude confidence
- SELL your programs more
-
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:07 pm

dlnnyc wrote:
- dont be stupid people, of course mao needs to follow CoP.

Thanks for your kindness. Rolling Eyes

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:09 pm

alyssa wrote:
dlnnyc wrote:
- dont be stupid people, of course mao needs to follow CoP.

Thanks for your kindness. Rolling Eyes

i didnt mean you Smile
everyone else..lol
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:16 pm

dlnnyc wrote:
alyssa wrote:
dlnnyc wrote:
- dont be stupid people, of course mao needs to follow CoP.

Thanks for your kindness. Rolling Eyes

i didnt mean you Smile
everyone else..lol

I know, but it wasn't kind anyway. I guess most users prefer more respectful words.

----------------------

Well, do you think there's a possibility Mao will skate to Caprice in the future? That would be gorgeous (Although I'd miss the fan Razz ). She normally doesn't repeat music, but since she used Masquerade again, I guess we can dream about it. Razz

By the way, does she have a special designer create her outfits or she and Tat choose them? They've been so.... uh... strange recently.

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:19 pm

alyssa wrote:

Well, do you think there's a possibility Mao will skate to Caprice in the future? That would be gorgeous. She normally doesn't repeat music, but since she used Masquerade again, I guess we can dream about it. Razz

By the way, does she have a special designer create her outfits or she and Tat choose them? They've been so.... uh... strange recently.

I think Mao may possibly skate to Caprice- she wanted to do it for the SP this season afterall- hopefully next season???

I think Mao has said that she doesn't think she has good fashion sense, so she lets other people make the decisions- ie. Tat and another costume designer, but I guess a lot of people don't think those are good decisions either Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:21 pm

chineseteacup wrote:
I get the feeling that if Mao somehow does choose to skate to Swan Lake, the program will be entirely unconventional and absolutely breathtaking because, well, it's skated by MAO ASADA - the No. 1 'ballerina on ice' Razz.

Totally agree with you there! That's why I would like her to do it, because I think the Mao Asada version would set the standard! Yep!

chineseteacup wrote:
It better be a benevolent spirit, because I can't guarantee I'll be convinced by Mao playing a vengeful one ROTFLMAO. I keep thinking back to that Olympus CM where she had to pretend to look angry but just ended up looking even cuter than usual Wub.

I agree, she's got to be a benevolent spirit, or a playful, mischievous one. Yes, I would also like Mao to do a 'charming' program--work that gorgeous smile! Very Happy

**

In that interview with Dai, which I will get to paraphrasing later, Mao says that she wouldn't have used a layout without two 3A's--that a layout without two would not satisfy her.

I wonder how that will change if she gets her 3-3s and some of the other jumps back...

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:26 pm

Batsuchan wrote:
chineseteacup wrote:
I get the feeling that if Mao somehow does choose to skate to Swan Lake, the program will be entirely unconventional and absolutely breathtaking because, well, it's skated by MAO ASADA - the No. 1 'ballerina on ice' Razz.

Totally agree with you there! That's why I would like her to do it, because I think the Mao Asada version would set the standard! Yep!

chineseteacup wrote:
It better be a benevolent spirit, because I can't guarantee I'll be convinced by Mao playing a vengeful one ROTFLMAO. I keep thinking back to that Olympus CM where she had to pretend to look angry but just ended up looking even cuter than usual Wub.

I agree, she's got to be a benevolent spirit, or a playful, mischievous one. Yes, I would also like Mao to do a 'charming' program--work that gorgeous smile! Very Happy

**

In that interview with Dai, which I will get to paraphrasing later, Mao says that she wouldn't have used a layout without two 3A's--that a layout without two would not satisfy her.

I wonder how that will change if she gets her 3-3s and some of the other jumps back...

it'll be one CRAZY layout then.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:26 pm

sapphiresky wrote:
I think Mao has said that she doesn't think she has good fashion sense, so she lets other people make the decisions- ie. Tat and another costume designer, but I guess a lot of people don't think those are good decisions either Razz

I'm one of these people. lol!

Genie wrote:
Batsuchan wrote:
I wonder how that will change if she gets her 3-3s and some of the other jumps back...


it'll be one CRAZY layout then.

I'm becoming afraid again... No Just one 3A Mao, please.

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:28 pm

Batsuchan wrote:

In that interview with Dai, which I will get to paraphrasing later, Mao says that she wouldn't have used a layout without two 3A's--that a layout without two would not satisfy her.

I wonder how that will change if she gets her 3-3s and some of the other jumps back...

Hmm...interesting! Mao is quite ambitious isn't she haha.

I hope that she doesn't push herself tooo hard, like with 2 3A's and 3-3's. Out of all the skaters, I know that Mao will most likely accomplish this, but I just hope she doesn't get too stressed out over too many challenges.

I have a feeling that she doesn't want to go back to her old layout of one 3A and 2 3-3's because it's just the same as before, and that's not enough of "challenge & evolution" for her.

Now I'm torn about what I want Mao to do for her jump layout.
I think perhaps she can do 3A-3T and another 3-3 if she wants a challenge while getting her other triples (and 3-3) back at the same time...


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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:30 pm

alyssa wrote:
sapphiresky wrote:
I think Mao has said that she doesn't think she has good fashion sense, so she lets other people make the decisions- ie. Tat and another costume designer, but I guess a lot of people don't think those are good decisions either Razz

I'm one of these people. lol!

Genie wrote:
Batsuchan wrote:
I wonder how that will change if she gets her 3-3s and some of the other jumps back...


it'll be one CRAZY layout then.

I'm becoming afraid again... No Just one 3A Mao, please.
Same here,sigh.
Girl,you are not superwoman......
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:33 pm

I would prefer that she take out the 3A out of the SP, because it's not a big advantage as opposed to the 3-3 as we have seen. I think she can go back to two 3A and one 3-3 in the LP. I feel a 3-3 is harder for Mao, so two may be a little much for her now.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:52 pm

In December 2008, Mao said her ideal layout would be two 3A's and TWO triple-triple combos--something like this, I'm guessing.

3A-2T
3A
3F-3T

3Lz
3F-3Lo
3S
2A

But she did say that two 3A's and a triple-triple were really difficult, so she may have abandoned this plan.

I would still love to see a 8 triple program from her one day though! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics   

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Thoughts on Mao's strategy post-Olympics
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