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 Kozuka's Dad Offers Mao Advice?

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Liffey
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PostSubject: Kozuka's Dad Offers Mao Advice?   Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:12 pm

Not sure where to put this... Mods, please feel free to move this! Sweatdrop

Did anyone see the article that's been posted on FSU and Golden Skate regarding an article where Kozuka's father gave critiques to Mao? The poster did not post a link to the article, only the text in Japanese. I do not want to copy their translation as it is obviously not mine. Sweatdrop

五輪直後にほぼミスのない演技で金メダルを獲得した事は立派。素直に拍手を送りたい が
今後の課題が見えた。

まずスピード。冒頭の3Aを慎重に跳ぶため演技全体にスピード感が生まれない。しかも単調。
対照的にキムヨナ選手は最初にスピード感ある3-3を跳び、その後は上手く強弱を付けてプログラムを表現する。
スケーティング技術や表現面など演技点で差が付く原因がここにある。

ジャンプも修正点は多い。
3Aは確かに大きな武器だが、今季のプログラムは偏りすぎていた。
ルッツとサルコーを外し、フリップも流れるようなジャンプが跳べず加点を殆ど貰えていない。
バランス良く、質の高いジャンプを跳べば加点が稼げ、プログラム全体の印象も高くなる。
コーチを変えるなら、ジャンプの基礎からしっかりと教えられる人材を探す必要があるだろう。

グルノーブル五輪代表 中京大アドバイザー 小塚嗣彦

The poster said it was from the Chunichi Shimbun (?) and that fans were furious with Kozu's Dad for criticizing Mao and using Yuna as an example of how to improve. Can anyone translate this article to verify? It seems like such a weird situation, and it's all over the other boards. Snow I'd like to hear from our members here about what's going on.
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PostSubject: Re: Kozuka's Dad Offers Mao Advice?   Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:40 pm

The content of the article (which supposedly is printed after Worlds) looks exactly like a previous interview Kozu's dad gave regarding Mao's Olys performance. The ever suspicious me thinks it's not from an interview after Worlds, but the very same article right after the Olys. Sweatdrop

Like a Star @ heaven While I would like to applaud Mao for skating cleanly with no visible errors, there's a lot of things that need to be addressed in her skating
Like a Star @ heaven She needs more speed on the first 3A; her ice coverage in general remains monotonous while Yu-Na skates fast in the beginning and alternates between slow and fast throughout. This is where a considerable difference in PCS takes place.
Like a Star @ heaven The 3A is a nice point getter, but Mao is too lopsided in her jumps; her flip doesn't have a smooth landing and fails to receive positive GoE
Like a Star @ heaven A balanced layout and good jumps will aid in a program receiving better feedback from the judges
Like a Star @ heaven If Mao will change coaches, it needs to be someone who can help from the basics.

Again, with the way Mao has been answering recent interviews, if this was indeed printed *after* Worlds...all I can say is meh. I'm very pleased that Mao wants to put all her triples back, but I never equated having all triples with positive judge reaction, ever. Mao's lutz in Clair de Lune or 3S in the first half of 08-09 did very little IMO to her PCS and Mr. Kozuka's statement about "varying levels of speed" in a program is a weak argument because there are so many skaters that do all that..but are yet lowballed in PCS anyway. This unfortunately includes Kozu himself. No

And for all the negativity the Masquerade SP and Bells received, it still scored pretty well on the PCS mark. It does indeed pale in comparison to Yu-Na, but I don't think a comparison with her makes much sense at this point since she can score in the 130 mark with an "off" skate, a fall and a pop (she scored like what, 65 in the PCS at Worlds?). No other lady can do that, and I seriously doubt Mao can either even if she attains "different levels of speed," skates to lyrical piano music, emotes her heart out, and attempts various triples. Neutral

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PostSubject: Re: Kozuka's Dad Offers Mao Advice?   Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:51 pm

I agree Kozuka has wonderful basic skating skills but his PCS doesn't reflect it. No Unfortunately, reputation has a lot to do with PCS scoring. Anyways, Mao already knows the areas that she has to improve on, so we shouldn't worry too much. cat
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PostSubject: Re: Kozuka's Dad Offers Mao Advice?   Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:14 am

clovera wrote:
The content of the article (which supposedly is printed after Worlds) looks exactly like a previous interview Kozu's dad gave regarding Mao's Olys performance. The ever suspicious me thinks it's not from an interview after Worlds, but the very same article right after the Olys. Sweatdrop

Like a Star @ heaven While I would like to applaud Mao for skating cleanly with no visible errors, there's a lot of things that need to be addressed in her skating
Like a Star @ heaven She needs more speed on the first 3A; her ice coverage in general remains monotonous while Yu-Na skates fast in the beginning and alternates between slow and fast throughout. This is where a considerable difference in PCS takes place.
Like a Star @ heaven The 3A is a nice point getter, but Mao is too lopsided in her jumps; her flip doesn't have a smooth landing and fails to receive positive GoE
Like a Star @ heaven A balanced layout and good jumps will aid in a program receiving better feedback from the judges
Like a Star @ heaven If Mao will change coaches, it needs to be someone who can help from the basics.

Again, with the way Mao has been answering recent interviews, if this was indeed printed *after* Worlds...all I can say is meh. I'm very pleased that Mao wants to put all her triples back, but I never equated having all triples with positive judge reaction, ever. Mao's lutz in Clair de Lune or 3S in the first half of 08-09 did very little IMO to her PCS and Mr. Kozuka's statement about "varying levels of speed" in a program is a weak argument because there are so many skaters that do all that..but are yet lowballed in PCS anyway. This unfortunately includes Kozu himself. No

And for all the negativity the Masquerade SP and Bells received, it still scored pretty well on the PCS mark. It does indeed pale in comparison to Yu-Na, but I don't think a comparison with her makes much sense at this point since she can score in the 130 mark with an "off" skate, a fall and a pop (she scored like what, 65 in the PCS at Worlds?). No other lady can do that, and I seriously doubt Mao can either even if she attains "different levels of speed," skates to lyrical piano music, emotes her heart out, and attempts various triples. Neutral

Clovera, thank you for translating this. You always provide great translations that we can count on. Daisies for you

I'm not really sure what to think. confused I do agree that Mao could use some more speed, especially going into jumps as that is a level of GOE in this system, and I also agree with him that her programs could be more "balanced," in the sense that they could be more COP-friendly. These are some things we've discussed on this board as improvements Mao could make to her skating.

But "monotonous" ice coverage? She needs to go back to "basics"? Varying levels of speed? Really? Neutral I'm also surprised that he kept referring to Yuna... Couldn't he discuss any improvements he'd like to see in Mao's skating without comparing the two girls? (Honestly, I'm so tired of everyone comparing them Rolling Eyes).

I guess I am still surprised that Kozuka's Dad would even say anything about Mao's training. Why doesn't he just focus on his own child? It just seems weird. scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Kozuka's Dad Offers Mao Advice?   Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:36 am

Liffey wrote:
Clovera, thank you for translating this. You always provide great translations that we can count on. Daisies for you

But "monotonous" ice coverage? She needs to go back to "basics"? Varying levels of speed? Really? Neutral
...
I guess I am still surprised that Kozuka's Dad would even say anything about Mao's training. Why doesn't he just focus on his own child? It just seems weird. scratch
No problem. Batsuchan does the bulk of the translating around here (big kudos to Batsuchan!) so I'm just doing my part to lighten her workload. cat

The comments regarding jumps and basic flow are very valid, and as you've said - things that have been brought up. I think it's great that Mao herself wants to work on this during the off-season. All this talk about "basics" and the various levels of speed caught me off guard though; oddly enough, Fumie also said this apparently on a recent news show post-Worlds (I'm waiting for a clip to show up on YT) which just makes this whole thing even weirder. Sweatdrop

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PostSubject: Re: Kozuka's Dad Offers Mao Advice?   Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:16 am

clovera wrote:
Liffey wrote:
Clovera, thank you for translating this. You always provide great translations that we can count on. Daisies for you

But "monotonous" ice coverage? She needs to go back to "basics"? Varying levels of speed? Really? Neutral
...
I guess I am still surprised that Kozuka's Dad would even say anything about Mao's training. Why doesn't he just focus on his own child? It just seems weird. scratch
No problem. Batsuchan does the bulk of the translating around here (big kudos to Batsuchan!) so I'm just doing my part to lighten her workload. cat

The comments regarding jumps and basic flow are very valid, and as you've said - things that have been brought up. I think it's great that Mao herself wants to work on this during the off-season. All this talk about "basics" and the various levels of speed caught me off guard though; oddly enough, Fumie also said this apparently on a recent news show post-Worlds (I'm waiting for a clip to show up on YT) which just makes this whole thing even weirder. Sweatdrop

Oh yes, I know she does! We're lucky to have such great translators on this forum. Very Happy

And Fumie really shouldn't be talking about anyone's basics or levels of speed... Neutral
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PostSubject: Re: Kozuka's Dad Offers Mao Advice?   Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:54 am

Thank you for the translation, clovera! flower And the article, Liffey~ Razz

I actually think this critique from Taka's dad will translate into very positive results in Mao's skating - provided that her team and herself takes his comments to heart and work on them.

All of Taka's dad's comments were concerns/criticisms (about Mao) of MANY North American commentators and even the British Eurosport guys. They all in different occasions mentioned that they found Mao's speed and ice coverage to be lacking. Some long-time skating bloggers also mentioned Mao's basic skating skills being sub-par, particularly apparent in her crossovers.

Michelle Kwan, though never commented on Mao directly, has mentioned at 2009 worlds that Yuna's edge quality is BY FAR the best among ALL ladies. And the fact that this comes from MK, means a lot. Another skating analyst on NBC who commented on ladies’ practice in the Olympics, also second this opinion.

Kurt Browning has always been very supportive of Mao, always there to back up Mao when Tracy Wilson favours Yuna in her commentary. I remember how Tracy mentioned in 2009 Worlds SP, that Mao had NOT been able landed her 3-3 all season, which sounded as if Mao is very incompetent :sweatdrops: . Of course this wasn't true, so Kurt jumps in and adds, "without underrotations". But even for all his love and compliments for Mao's 3As and beautiful positions in the SP, he still commented on Mao's lack of speed and ice coverage in the FS as well. Only that he hoped that this will change as she changes the music next season.

Actually, Taka's dad's comments are the ONLY constructive and relevant criticisms the media has reported so far allllll season. So, even if it may appear as an initial blow to Mao's pride (I don't mean that she is an arrogant person though), I really believe that Team Mao should take it all in and really think on it.

Mao had the superior edging and speed that will give Yuna a run for her money, but that was when she was in the juniors. Check her 2005 junior worlds SP and FS, or even her 2005 Carmen program. Look at her edge control on her spirals, particularly in her 2005 Worlds SP. Mao, with her growth spurts, has lost much of her speed and quality edges, though with TAT, she was able to regain much of it. Still, there is still room to improve even more. Oscilla did a great commentary on this. You guys can check it out~~

Mao's 2005 Carmen SP is packed with many transitions, and she skates everything with speed - to the effect that even her flutz looks BEAUTIFUL. Because of the fast transitions BEFORE the jump, the flow coming out of the jump and the exit pose; everything performed with such ease and confidence.

I am being harsh here, especially when Mao delivered such a strong performance at worlds recently. But I hope that Team Mao does not dismiss Yuna's win in the FS or Mirai’s SP lead as judges' subjectivity or even lobbying. Or simply as the result of Mao underrotating the 3A. No. There is more to the story and it specifically relates the judges' evaluation of Mao as a skater at the moment and her competitiveness.

Mao is definitely heading towards the right direction by saying that she wants to get back her old friends, lutz and salchow. Razz That I am immensely happy and excited about. The talk about the 3-3 is also awesome, particularly because Mao always stick to her words, for better or worse. Thumbs up!

Basic skating skills, speed, edging are not things that you can develop or change overnight. So this is where choreography comes into play. The right choreographer helps the skater DISGUISE their flaws and SHOWCASES their strengths. Since Mao was never great at acting in general, she needs the music, the choreography to lift her up (i.e. music with a triumphant and uplifting feeling, lyrical flow of notes, highs and lows, instead of a static repetition of the same rhythm…) Be genuine and true to yourself.

Like a Star @ heaven Having said that, the fact the Taka's Dad had to make these comments publicly really erks me. I hope that he communicated with Mao FIRST, or at least cleared it with her afterwards. It just seems the more polite and respectful way to help an athlete improve, instead of publicizing your criticisms for everyone to see, even if you are the ‘advisor’ of the chuukyuo rink. Same for Fumie as well. Meh.
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PostSubject: Re: Kozuka's Dad Offers Mao Advice?   Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:22 am

I think this has been discussed before in another thread, but why did Mao rework her flip technique? I know people said she has a sort of hammertoe going into it, but I never thought that it was distracting or looked unappealing. Her flip before this season was beautiful and had great height and flow. Her flip now is still good but I think I much prefer her flip from the past seasons. It looks like her flip now will not be able to give her the speed or height she needs to add a triple loop to it.

Sorry if my analysis is totally wrong, I have an amateur eye Sweatdrop
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PostSubject: Re: Kozuka's Dad Offers Mao Advice?   Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:49 am

snowdrops24:

I do agree with some of your points but I don't agree with some others Razz

- First of all, in terms of commentators and "blogger experts":

It's really amazing how people's opinions change when a skater is no longer perceived to be "the best thing that has happened in ladies figure skating", or is no longer on top.

If you look back to 2007-2008 season, when everyone was in love with Mao- all the commentators, people on boards, people rarely criticized her of anything. Check out the youtube videos with all the different commentators.
This has a lot to do with the fact that Mao was dominating that season.
Her skating drastically improved in the later seasons when she was with Tarasova:

These are videos with her collection of spiral sequences and spins:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhLPOjk2fPE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdlR7J-zN5w

You can see the edge quality improve in her spirals this season (remember how she got like +2.40 GOE in the Olympics- more than everyone else this year?), and she actually has much more speed in her spins compared to her junior years.
She also has more height to her jumps than her junior years.

I looked at the board archives on certain "infamous" boards:
The same people who praised Mao like she was god in 2007-2008 are now criticizing her skating like there is no tomorrow. However, I think that if you just examine the different elements, you see that she really improved in each one. Her skating this season, you could argue has improved from 2007-2008: it's her programs that people are disliking- but this is translating now to her skating.

When people are on top, people "don't see" the other side- but when they're not anymore, they start jumping to criticisms. Case in point- Jack Gallagher.

Kurt also tried to explain this- he did say that her skating seemed "monotonous" during her LP, but he also said that it was likely due to the fact that he dislikes the music (he did say that it was like vampires coming from the ground or something...).

The commentators were also the same ones who praised her wonderfully during her SP this year, while criticizing those same skating skills in her LP.

Like you said, the music does wonders- unfortunately people can't get out of this bias.

Also like you said, speed is an issue that Mao needs to work on- people agree on this.
However, I feel that it's very unfair and unrealistic for a lot of people to compare a skater in their senior and junior years. I don't think that her edge work was that much better before- we just perceive her to be lighter, more at ease. Junior skaters also tend to skate very quickly- eg. little kids are amazing in how fast they skate- I'm always the slow one, I get the sense that it's like they have no fear- complete freedom.

Mao said herself that when she watches her younger skating vids, she noticed a lightness, but it's difficult once you grow up...

Also like Clovera said- the point about alternating between fast and slow?
I don't get why that is necessary. Does artistic impression always have to have a slow movement somewhere in the LP?
I know that all ladies (and most men) have this slow movement in the middle of the music where they sorta rest, do their "expression thing" then come back...
It's kinda silly to say that PCS will grow if that happens- although some judges may like this lol?
This argument also really limits music selection- how many repeats of the typical songs have we heard in skating. Classical music does not just have these songs...

Clovera also mentioned a good point that even when Mao had all her triples (ie. 2008-2009 season), PCS didn't really improve.

So now, instead of asking Mao to gain the same "lightness" as her junior years and comparing her to being 15 years old, I think it's more realistic to want to see her improve year by year.
Aside from her programs and arguably the jumps, her spins, spirals and expression have all improved this year. The difficulty of her step sequence is also a good example of the use of edges I think.

I think that Mao herself also realizes her weaknesses, especially in the jumps (JSF also said that they want to help her with her speed)- and knowing the Mao that we all know, she's going to keep on tackling them Very Happy

Note aside: I've noticed that Mao, even when she was little, has always kept a straight "toe leg"- meaning when she taps into the ice for a flip etc., she keeps her leg straight- as a result of this, she leans forward more than others. Other skaters bend their legs as they pick into the ice.
It seems that it worked for her before because she was smaller, but is harder for her now.

Then again, I've also learned from being in music that everyone has different techniques, including the top musicians, and that there's no "right" way- it's what works for the person- everyone has different bodies, different ways of grasping things.
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PostSubject: Re: Kozuka's Dad Offers Mao Advice?   Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:32 pm

Thanks clovera for translating! Very Happy

As clovera said, these comments seem to come from an interview that Kozuka-san did soon after the ladies' free program at the Olympics.

And like clovera, my first reaction is kind of 'mehh.' When I first watched this interview, like snowdrops24, I was a little irked that Kozuka-san would be so critical of Mao on TV. I hope he has raised these suggestions with Mao's team rather than expressing his opinions only to the media. That's not constructive.

And as clovera and snowdrops24 have pointed out, Mao herself is highly aware of her technical shortcomings and has expressed a strong intention to work on her jumps during the off-season. I fully expect Mao to do the 3Lz and at least one type of 3-3 next season. Yep!

I do think Kozuka's critiques about Mao's speed and edging are quite valid, and as snowdrops24 pointed out, many commentators and experts have the same critiques. However, I am rather puzzled. confused
-Clearly Mao skates much slower than Yu-Na, Mirai, Miki, etc., and even I was struck by how slow and un-flowy Mao seemed to be in her LP, even at Worlds.
-I have seen posters attack her speed and edging, and I have also seen people rave about her marvelous basic skating skills and how they could watch her stroke all day long.
-We also know that Mao is very, very good at compulsory figures, which Kozuka-san, among others, taught her! And her footwork sequences are unparalleled!
-So it is a bit puzzling to me. However, I know Oscilla did explain that Mao lost her deep edges in her stroking (thank you!), and obviously she has lost the speed she once had.

I think you all raise a valid question of how much speed should really matter. Suspect

HOWEVER, I will set that aside for a moment, because the judges have made it clear that the want to see lots of speed and ice coverage.

The same seems to go for the jumps. Last year, one of the Japanese judges (Fujimori-san?) said that Mao and Yu-Na represent two jumping styles. Yu-Na jumps with explosive power; she uses her speed to get great distance and height. She jumps like the men. Mao, on the other hand, has a very feminine jumping style; she jumps like a butterfly--soft and light. In that particular judge’s opinion, both styles are equally good, just different.

Unfortunately, it seems like the majority of judges disagree. They prefer to see big jumps. I was reading comments on this Japanese blog and it seems like there was a rule change for the GOE's--before it used to be "distance OR height" that gave you +GOEs, now you need "distance AND height" to get +GOEs. Which could be why Mao no longer gets great GOE for her jumps, since she jumps high, but not far.
http://ameblo.jp/stain-love/entry-10471748657.html

So once again, I feel like Mao needs to decide how much she wants to win under the current judging system versus how much she wants to do her own thing.

I do think Mao should improve her speed and edging, but I also wonder how much it will affect her jumps. As Shizuka Arakawa said before 2007 Worlds, Mao jumps based on timing; she doesn't use her speed to launch her jumps (which is what Yu-Na does). So if she starts skating faster, I think it will take her some time/practice to get the timing right for her jumps.

Another thought--Dai said how much he admires Mao's lightness on the ice; Kristi Yamaguchi loved that quality as well. I'd hate for Mao to lose that just for the sake of being a speed demon. But that's just me. Sweatdrop

In the end, though, I definitely agree with sapphiresky--if Mao did exactly what she has been doing, but to light, airy, pretty music, I bet all the commentators and fans who have been criticizing Mao would be swooning once again. Then Mao's skating would not look so slow, it would simply fit the delicate, soft nature of the music. Yep!

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PostSubject: Re: Kozuka's Dad Offers Mao Advice?   Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:10 pm

Everyone is making a lot of valid points. cat I am not sure if Mao is actually skating slower than before or maybe it's just the illusion created by her current programs. Mao's past programs were packed with transitions so she seems to be moving constantly. Whereas "Bells" has fewer transitions so it might seem Mao is moving slower across the ice.
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PostSubject: Re: Kozuka's Dad Offers Mao Advice?   Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:53 pm

This is why I love posting on this forum. Swoon Great minds; refreshing ideas. Confetti

sapphiresky, I suppose I was quite critical in my last post Sweatdrop . I don't mean to imply that Mao must change according to what the commentators think. As you pointed out clearly, their opinions change ALL the time. Rather, I was trying to substantiate Kozuka-san's points, making an observation that he is not alone in his views; many figure skating commentators, who are also very recognized skaters/coaches/choreographers, have also noticed that. THIS, captured my attention and concerned me. But I am no skating expert, so I could never confirm whether they are valid or not.

I hope that I didn't give you the impression that I am disregarding Mao's progress by comparing her junior skates to her senior ones Sad. Mao's improvements in the past seasons (Clair de lune blew me away with its sophistication and polishedness when I first saw it), especially in the last few competitions are too HUGE to be missed. Swoon. In other threads, I raved about how happy I was to finally see her get all level 4s for her spins and spiral Thumbs up! ; I had been waiting for Team Mao to fix that forever. It never fails to bug me when I see her constantly lose levels on her spiral with all her flexibility, pointed toes and gorgeous extension.

And yes, I totally agree that there is a different style for every skater and that no one should be forced to change just because of the commentators' opinions or what many 'experts' view as the 'right' way. Yep! I too am proud of our girl the way she is.

Batsuchan, I am puzzled as well as how diverged people's opinions are sometimes on Mao's basic skating. Kurt and Scott have both compilmented on Mao's deep edges before in different competitions. Kurt marvelled at how great Mao's basic skating is during her 2009 Worlds FS performance, even though he really disliked her program choreography and music. I have heard though, that skaters with great basic skating skills and edges are not necessarily good at footwork and step sequences.

Thank you for the information about the altered rules for awarding GOEs. It does explain a lot. Sometimes, without looking up the rules in COP, the scores in figure skating is truly bizarre for a casual viewer. This happened for me in the spiral sequence. I had never understood why Mao's spirals were graded level 3 in the past seasons... until I read the rules and I realized how flexibility and extension is only but one of the many criterion for a level 4.

The lightness in Mao's skating is too precious to be trade off for anything. NONE of the ladies at the present does it as well as Mao.

Mao is aiming for Sochi for ONE reason: to WIN GOLD. I know Mao is always about putting her best performance out first, rather than medals. But she is such a competitor. There are still 4 years, so she has time to experiment new things.

But to win anything in any sport, you HAVE to play along the rules, even if they are imperfect and unfair.

A main reason why Mao lost gold to Yuna at the Olys was that she and her team did not understand COP's judging as well as Team Yuna. I have always felt that as much as I love Mao challenging 3 3as, she is really going for gold in the hardest possible way under the current judging system. *sigh*

--------------------------

Like a Star @ heaven The main point I'd like to get across was that I believe Kozuka-san's opinions are worth considering closely by Team Mao because he does make a reasonable case for why Mao is suffering so much in the GOEs and sometimes in the PCS this past season. There is a part of me that thinks the Mao and her team are confused (if not oblivious) about what the judges are looking for in COP and what is their evaluation/impression of Mao as a skater compared to her other competitors.
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PostSubject: Re: Kozuka's Dad Offers Mao Advice?   Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:57 pm

THANK YOU sapphiresky! I couldn't have said all you said better myself. So I guess that's all I really have to say about that... lol

And thank you also, Batsuchan, for you're further interesting opinions, and insight on the topic. I must agree with everything you said as well!

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PostSubject: Re: Kozuka's Dad Offers Mao Advice?   Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:07 am

snowdrops24- Sorry if I came off with the wrong message.

Rather than criticizing you (which I was not doing by all means!) I was more ticked off by the commentators who "noticed" certain things this year- conveniently, when Mao was struggling, that they didn't see the previous years.
I also just finished reading some archival boards from a few years ago when I was typing my post up, so I was a little annoyed by people who think they "know it all"- ie. commentators and posters on *certain forums lol.

I know that you, and many others are in full support of Mao, and we are all seeing her improvements, so I didn't get the wrong message at all- just a discussion Razz

Thanks Star85! And thanks Batsuchan for doing such a great summary of all our viewpoints- it would get an A+ if it was an essay lol.
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