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 Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert

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aoi88
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PostSubject: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:12 pm

I am posted this in Mao's strategy thread, but it seems like that thread is a bit neglected as of late. Razz So I decided to create a new thread for this, because I would like to hear more thoughts from everyone.

There's a very knowledgeable poster on the icenetwork skating forums, and he has posted theoretical layouts for Mao that will help close the gap between her scores and Yuna's.

The first layout

1) Triple Flip + Triple Toe
2) Triple Lutz
3) Triple Loop + Double Loop + Double Loop
4) Triple Axel (Second Half)
5) Triple Flip (Second Half)
6) Double Axel + Double Axel (Second Half)
7) Triple Loop (Second Half)

http://www.icenetworkincrowd.com/topic/668/t/Thoughts---Ladies-skating---Vancouver-Olympics-2010.html?page=2 (The username is Wallylutz)

The second layout
1)3F+3T
2)3Lz
3)FSSp4
4)3S
5)SpSq4
6)3A
7)3Lo+3Lo
8)FCoSp4
9)3F
10)2A+2A+2A+SEQ
11)SlSt4
12)CCoSp4

http://www.icenetworkincrowd.com/topic/668/t/Thoughts---Ladies-skating---Vancouver-Olympics-2010.html?page=3 (here's another one)

To be honest, in the beginning, this poster made me a bit uneasy because he makes some harsh criticisms against Mao's skating. However, seeing that he took all this time to make layouts for her, I realize that he actually does hope she improves and that she has a chance to beat Yuna. Also, Wallylutz seems to be a CoP expert and there are speculations that he is a judge. His deep knowledge of the system makes me think that he is an insider of the skating organization and so I think it is worth it to read his posts, because we can get how people within the system thinks.


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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:16 pm

but, you really think that he or she is a judge or expert?, I mean this person did not know Mao in theory can do 8triples because her 3A Suspect . Anyway, yes, looks like a good strategy, but I am not sure about the 3A in the 2nd half, specially with the judges being so stricts about ur, Mao needs to be very clear that she rotated her 3a, then she needs a lot of energy for this jump and in the 2nd half is not the ideal. and even like that we know what happend in worlds with the 3a Mad . And the 2a 2a seq is really a very good idea, mainly because this jumps is so easy for Mao.

May be she needs practice a layout like this like crazy, regardless of the result for the next 4years Yep! , because a good strategy that worked with Yuna was that her layout and in fact everything else scratch really is the same since she came to seniors, except of course for the 3f-3t to 3lutz-3t, that was almost not change because her lip, the jump was like a lutz already.
Like Mao´s 3a, early in the season and the other seasons was not so consistent, but she practiced again and again and look now Worship .
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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:29 pm

The first layout is very doable for Mao. At first, I also thought the 3A at the halfway point of the program may be too demanding, but Mao is known for her stamina. She used to do her 2nd 3-3 at the second half of the program, which I think it's also more or less equally demanding for her. So I think it's totally within Mao's capability to do a 3A at the halfway point. The second layout is a bit too much in my opinion too. However, I do think that doing all the 5 triples plus the 3A will be extremely beneficial to Mao (and it will silence those critics who says she's missing jumps and assume she cannot do them). I am not too sure about the 3lo-3lo, because Mao never did that jump in a competition before, though she did one in practice and the loop is her strongest jump. However, it's very hard to get a 3lo at the end of a combo ratified. I am not sure but instead of a second 3-3, I think Mao can try a 2A-3T, which I think she did before. She could also try 3lo-2T. I am not sure if a 3lo-3T has been tried before, but maybe Mao can work toward that.

Although Wallylutz's layouts are not perfect, I think the underlying idea is important, which is that Mao needs a layout with a base value that is considerably higher than Yuna's. Yuna is known to rack up huge points in GOE which gives her a considerable advantage over everyone else, and this is what makes her extremely hard to beat nowadays. Moreover, this is an advantage that she had since the beginning because she always got higher GOE's in her jumps than Mao did. However, in the past, Mao countered that with complicated layouts that had a much higher base value. With the first layout, Mao will have a 5 point lead in BV, which is about what she had during 2007-2008 and that strategy worked. If both Mao and Yuna go clean in the LP, Yuna will have about 5-7 point (if we give 1-2 pts in terms of PCS) then 5-6 pts are from GOE. (I am assuming that Mao's clean LP at Olympics would be around lower 140 range.) With a 5 pt lead in BV and GOE, Mao can make up the gap.

Of course, I think there are a lot of issues with the CoP and I do not agree with how they reward points. But since Mao has to compete under this complicated system, I think strategy is key. I really hope that there will be a CoP expert in Mao's team. Another poster wrote, "if you can't beat them in the air, beat them in the ground." Since Mao can't get the GOE's that Yuna's getting now, she has to beat her in the content of their programs. One of Yuna's weaknesses is her stamina (though she's gotten better) and this is perhaps one of the reasons she rarely performs a clean LP. We all now that nobody can surpass Mao in terms of stamina. I think she can really compete with the men in terms of what she can do in a program. That's Mao's greatest strength and in a system which rewards maximizing strengths and minimizing risks, this is the way to go.
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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:49 pm

yes, her stamina is incredible, who else can do that step seq Shocked ? I am still very sceptical about the 3f 3loop comb, that judges Evil or Very Mad !!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:33 pm

Well it seems to me that 4 years are quite a long time.. But maybe that's only now, and in truth, they'll pass quickly. But still, at the moment I feel that with the skills and advantages that she has, in 4 years she can improve immensely.

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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:39 pm

This person has some good ideas, but I doubt he's a judge. I don't know why anyone who knows so much about figure skating would ever suggest that Mao do her 3A in the second half of the program... Suspect! Everyone knows what a risk she's already taking. Maybe he just takes Mao for a superhuman? Yep!

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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:11 am

Star85 wrote:
This person has some good ideas, but I doubt he's a judge. I don't know why anyone who knows so much about figure skating would ever suggest that Mao do her 3A in the second half of the program... Suspect! Everyone knows what a risk she's already taking. Maybe he just takes Mao for a superhuman? Yep!

I have to agree with Star85 on this....If Mao can mainly focus on the 3A like she did last season, maybe a 3A in the latter half might be possible. But since she's going to be working on 3-3s and her lutz and sal probabaly, I think it would be a bit tough.

Plus I think she'll have to sacrifice alot of wins in the coming seasons, until she can skate these programs perfectly, so I'm not sure if she should go for something like them.

However, if Mao herself sees these layouts, I think maybe she'd want to challenge them. If she or anyone can ever do such programs clean, it'll surely be the most legendary skate of all time in ladies. I can see that Wallylutz thinks very highly of Mao's abilities, which may be a little too much, but is encouraging at the same time. It makes me happy that people like him, who probably isn't a crazy Mao fan like us, regards Mao of being capable of such programs in the future. cat

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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:18 am

The 2A+2A seq is quite an attractive idea. I doubt anyone has done this before. and the BA will be (3.5+3.5)*0.8*1.1=6.16, perhaps with a goe 1.0 to get a good 7.16 for the last jump. WOW!!! I doubt if I'm right on this...

but the 3lo3lo, I prefer 3F3Lo since Mao has done it before and it has a higher BA and seems less difficult as commonly regarded before.

I somehow have an idea that Mao dreams of a layout with 2 3As and 2 3+3.I don't know if it is true.But she was so close at the begining of the 08/09 season.

I will cry myself out if I see this layout in Sochi:


SP:3A, 3F+3L, 3Lz(If the new rule about the axel in sp has been granted)

LP: 3A,3F+3T,3lz,3S,3F+3L, 3L,2A-2l-2l

As for this year, I will be happy if I see 3A, 3F3L and 3Lz together in a competition, especially in the Worlds in Tokyo, all clean. Not sure about the 3Lz, but obviously 33 is on Mao's agenda.
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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:15 am

Thank you for posting. It's quite interesting however wallylutz is known to be a Uber Yuna fan. He or she is everywhere in different name.
I don't think a real judge would have so much time to kill playing on internet.
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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:26 am

My current dream is seeing her do all 6 triples. She's the only one who can do it at present.

I guess she should drop ideas like two 3As, and even 3A in combination, it demands too much from her, and if she intends to add other triples, it's a bad idea. Also, 3A on the second half is craziness. She wouldn't be able to enjoy the program.

She must focus on having solid triples and a good choreographed program. Making history is great (three 3As in olys), but I guess it's more than proved that it won't get her an OGM.

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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:29 am

I don't think he's a judge. Because even for men skaters 3a in the second half is difficult. No way for Mao to do that. And also I don't feel good about 3s but we'll see. I really hope 3lz and 3-3 combo will come back.
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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:38 am

These layouts are crazy, especially the second one. The first one is something Mao can do but the second one... I don't know if four years are enough to skate something like this cleanly. I am not underestimating Mao, but it's clear that this would be very risky for her. Plus, suggesting a 3A at half of the program is absurd. It'll be too much.

The 2A+2A in the second half sounds intriguing though. Did Mao ever do this?
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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:43 am

Star85 wrote:
This person has some good ideas, but I doubt he's a judge. I don't know why anyone who knows so much about figure skating would ever suggest that Mao do her 3A in the second half of the program... Suspect! Everyone knows what a risk she's already taking. Maybe he just takes Mao for a superhuman? Yep!

Maybe cat I don't know if he is a judge or not (those are just speculations I heard from posters who have been on that forum for quite a while .) However, I do think he knows quite a lot about the CoP for him to create whole programs. His posts does have his biases but hey we all know people who run the CoP are not all that objective. geek

I am not sure if it's that impossible for Mao to do one halfway because she did do a difficult 3-3 (3F-3Lo) later in the program before. And it's just one 3A not a combo, so will it be that more difficult to try one halfway? Actually, I remember Midori did that at the Olympics when she missed the first one. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:50 am

3-3 is easier then 3 axel. 3 axel needs a different concentration, it's very difficult jump, Mishin talked about that. People,we're talking about lady skater Mao,not about men skater Plushy Suspect who can jump 3 axel in the darkness. I don't think this member is COP expert. We have some COp experts on russian forum, and even second axel in the beginning made them No All these 3a came not from good life.
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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:42 am

hmm... i always thought 3a comes more easily for mao than a 3-3, since she practices 3a more often. also i've seen mao's 3a have gotten much more stable since before. her landings are more solid and she has more height into them. even if it may be a bit much now, i think she can work towards it for sochi. i guess she can do another 3-3 combo halfway as she did in the past, but the problem is i don't think 3f-3lo is the best combination since the judges are so harsh on loop combos. if mao gets downgraded, it won't give her advantage over yuna. as long as yuna has the 3lutz-3toe, she's very formidable. any ideas on what other combos mao could try?
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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:29 am

polosatik wrote:
3-3 is easier then 3 axel. 3 axel needs a different concentration, it's very difficult jump, Mishin talked about that. People,we're talking about lady skater Mao,not about men skater Plushy Suspect who can jump 3 axel in the darkness. I don't think this member is COP expert. We have some COp experts on russian forum, and even second axel in the beginning made them No All these 3a came not from good life.

And you think that the judges played with so much prudence in worlds 2010 scratch ? I don´t think that, For me the judges right now are "##"$$% Very Mad
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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:50 pm

chapis wrote:
polosatik wrote:
3-3 is easier then 3 axel. 3 axel needs a different concentration, it's very difficult jump, Mishin talked about that. People,we're talking about lady skater Mao,not about men skater Plushy Suspect who can jump 3 axel in the darkness. I don't think this member is COP expert. We have some COp experts on russian forum, and even second axel in the beginning made them No All these 3a came not from good life.

And you think that the judges played with so much prudence in worlds 2010 scratch ? I don´t think that, For me the judges right now are "##"$$% Very Mad
No, I don't think so. And I don't say that. So I'm not really understand why are you saying this? But anyway, I'm not a fan of this system,there are a lot of strange things. And of course this system is for north american skaters and coaches.
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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:08 pm

To be honest, I had a hard time giving Wallylutz some props. As much as I respect his knowledge of figure skating, it appeared to me all his effort was more centered to make readers believe that the current judging system had been carried out so rightfully. I hate to be this much suspicious but anyone who devotes him/herself so much to convince readers of how legitimate that ridiculously high score was has to be subject to distrust Wink , let alone his own “judging sheet” that gave L4 and plus 3 GEO to the spiral of the Torino LP winner affraid … Um…he may well be a judge in that sense Suspect geek , ...but I know that is not the focal point of this thread, my bad Embarassed

[quote="PochinkoPotanko"]
Quote :
I have to agree with Star85 on this....If Mao can mainly focus on the 3A like she did last season, maybe a 3A in the latter half might be possible. But since she's going to be working on 3-3s and her lutz and sal probabaly, I think it would be a bit tough.

Plus I think she'll have to sacrifice alot of wins in the coming seasons, until she can skate these programs perfectly, so I'm not sure if she should go for something like them.

I agree with both Star85 and PochiPota. As aoi88 said it is harsh reality that Moa still has to go under the current jugding system. I also think that Mao needs to be well prepared and execute a clean program from the very begining next season in order to regain better reputation among judges. Even though she may posses a talent for Wallylutz programs, won't it be too risky for her to go that extream at this point? In a longer span, it is a different story, but as for the next season, I do hope she will bring back 3-3 combo and 3lts.

At least it was good to know that Wallylutz is aware that Mao is capable of closing the gap between herself and the reigning Olympic Champ and even surpassing her. I liked the suggestion of his that she may as well improve her step sequence to L4.

PochiPota-san,
Thanks a lot for your warm welcom and congratulations on our anniversary.
I went to your blog the other day. I liked your otokomae nawriting style lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:33 pm

polosatik wrote:
chapis wrote:
polosatik wrote:
3-3 is easier then 3 axel. 3 axel needs a different concentration, it's very difficult jump, Mishin talked about that. People,we're talking about lady skater Mao,not about men skater Plushy Suspect who can jump 3 axel in the darkness. I don't think this member is COP expert. We have some COp experts on russian forum, and even second axel in the beginning made them No All these 3a came not from good life.

And you think that the judges played with so much prudence in worlds 2010 scratch ? I don´t think that, For me the judges right now are "##"$$% Very Mad
No, I don't think so. And I don't say that. So I'm not really understand why are you saying this? But anyway, I'm not a fan of this system,there are a lot of strange things. And of course this system is for north american skaters and coaches.

ok, I understanded like this person can´t be a COP expert because that he/she said was not sense, then I thought that the judges "COP experts" have not sense anyway, but my english is very bad, sorry Sweatdrop .
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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:25 pm

Hanatsuki wrote:

Quote :
I have to agree with Star85 on this....If Mao can mainly focus on the 3A like she did last season, maybe a 3A in the latter half might be possible. But since she's going to be working on 3-3s and her lutz and sal probabaly, I think it would be a bit tough.

Plus I think she'll have to sacrifice alot of wins in the coming seasons, until she can skate these programs perfectly, so I'm not sure if she should go for something like them.

I agree with both Star85 and PochiPota. As aoi88 said it is harsh reality that Moa still has to go under the current jugding system. I also think that Mao needs to be well prepared and execute a clean program from the very begining next season in order to regain better reputation among judges. Even though she may posses a talent for Wallylutz programs, won't it be too risky for her to go that extream at this point? In a longer span, it is a different story, but as for the next season, I do hope she will bring back 3-3 combo and 3lts.

At least it was good to know that Wallylutz is aware that Mao is capable of closing the gap between herself and the reigning Olympic Champ and even surpassing her. I liked the suggestion of his that she may as well improve her step sequence to L4.

PochiPota-san,
Thanks a lot for your warm welcom and congratulations on our anniversary.
I went to your blog the other day. I liked your otokomae nawriting style lol!

Hanatsuki, thanks for reading my blog. It's so amateur and kinda stupid, so I'm a bit embarrased though. (And you need not add a 'san' after my ID. It's okay to be more casual and relaxed!)

I think some of you guys may already know, but there's this real famous blogger in Japan called mizumizu who writes alot about figure skating, and she's really an expert (http://plaza.rakuten.co.jp/mizumizu4329/). And she (well maybe a he, but most likely she) wrote that it's a bad idea for the JSF (Japanese Skating Fed) to propose the 3A being allowed in ladies's SP. I was a bit surprised by that at first, since she has been against the current system not rewarding high skilled jumps and all. But when I read her article on that, she did have a point.

Mizumizu said that it's obvious that the JSF is going to make that proposition for the sake of Mao scoring more higher in SP. Which is basically not a bad thing, and she's not against allowing 3A in the SP at all. However, if this proposition should go through, she pointed out that the JSF would pressure Mao into doing a 3-3, a triple, and a 3A next season in her SP all at once. And that would be just too tough on her, when she should or must concentrate on getting her lutz fixed above anything. Plus getting her 3-3 stable is also another big thing she has to succed in.

Mizumizu also added that we have gotten so used to Mao jumping 3As, we all tend to forget or misunderstand that even for her, it is still a very difficult and risky jump. According to her, although she's gifted to be able to do a 3A since childhood, as she ages it will get more and more difficult for her to continue jumping them. And the fact she had so much trouble with them until the middle of last season clearly proves that. So aside from whether or not it was a good plan, Mao had no choice but to avoid her lutz and sal last season to highten the success rate of her 3As in both SP and FP. Thus if she were to continue including a 3A in her SP, in mizumizu's opinion, it'll be close to impossible for Mao to get her other jumps back properly.

Mizumizu may not be totally right, but she's very objective and although she thinks highly of Mao's abitlities, she knows very well of her weak points as well. She has also noted how extremely difficult it is for ladies to do 3As, and that it's beyond a miracle that Mao up till now has managed to keep them without getting major injuries during practice, as opposed to Midori who suffered alot of them while completing her 3A. Furthermore, mizumizu says that since Mao's 3As are based on the lightness of her figure, unlike Midori's which were based on musclular strength, she'll have to keep those strict diets going in order to keep on jumping them. And the older she gets, the more tougher the dieting is going to have to be.

I get the impression that mizumizu is not so optimistic about Mao being able to go on jumping her 3As constantly in the future. And that's the main reason she thinks Mao has to stabilize her 3-3s and lutz, just in case. I do hope she's wrong and Mao would be able to keep her 3As at least until Sochi, but I can understand her worries, too. I agree that we should at least keep in mind how much extreme effort it takes for Mao to keep on jumping her 3As, and not take it for granted like Plush's quads.

Of course even without her 3As, I'll always love her skating, but I would like her to keep on jumping at least 1 in her FP or SP, though.For to me it's still the most beautiful jump I've ever seen in ladies, and I'll never forget all those goosebumps it gave me when I saw it live in WTT. cat

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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:48 am

PochinkoPotanko, thanks for translating Mizumizu's points. I kinda agree with this blogger. If the rule is passed, then Mao will have to load her SP with 3A and a 3-3, in order to take full advantage of it. And that's just too much for her to do in a SP. Also the greater the reward, the greater the risk. The judges may be even harsher on UR's and if Mao get downgrades on one or both of these jumps, she loses any advantage she would get. Anyways, I don't think this rule would be passed since no other lady is doing a 3A as of now, so I don't think it's a good idea for Mao to continue doing a 3A in the SP. She's taking too much risk and not getting rewarded enough. As we have seen, if Mao gets downgraded, skaters like Mirai can even pass her by doing a 3-3. The thing is if a 3-3 get downgraded, one triple still counts, whereas if a 3A gets downgraded, Mao essentially loses a triple. I also agree the 3A will get harder and harder for Mao as she ages. We have to remember Mao will be 23 by Sochi, which is not considered young anymore in ladies figure skating. The last thing I want is for Mao to retire due to injury like my other favorite Michelle. Sad I love Mao's skating for its softness and beauty, not because she does the 3A. The 3A is just a cherry on top. I don't want the 3A to define everything about her skating (as the media seems to imply Rolling Eyes ). Don't forget Mao won her first worlds without her 3A. The best layout for Mao is one in which she can win even without the 3A, because everything else is so good.
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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:25 am

I hope this time she finds a couch who has a better strategy... because this year they put out two entire jumps ( lutz and salchow), opted not to go for a 3-3 and that knowing that kim gets +2 on everything she lands cleanly.... apart from the two triple axel challenge this was her easiest program of all time i think if we concentrate on the base value....

she needs to make her programs more difficult than kim because the quality of her jumps is lower than kim's....
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hanatsuki



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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:58 pm

PochinkoPotanko,
Wow, it is amazing how beautifully you translated it! It is a privilege that this forum always has someone who is ready to offer translation for non-Japanese readers to share information.  

Oh, by the way, you shouldn't feel embarrassed. Your blog is great, indeed Thumbs up! .

I think I’ve read Mizumizu's blog you translated. I am with her on it.
You are right, our expectations could go sky-high since Mao jumps and skates so smoothly and beautifully. Fans are such crazy beings that I, myself, often wish to see Mao wows the world with her three perfect 3As along with 3-3 and another 3. But she is a human… Well, whatever program(s) she opts, I will be all for it Cheering

aoi88,

Quote :
The judges may be even harsher on UR's and if Mao get downgrades on one or both of these jumps, she loses any advantage she would get.

You talked for me, aoi88. (and Hi, I am a newbie here)
It is quite up to the technical judges… Frustrated
A lot of “experts” have also pointed out that Mao’s focus on her 3A had taken a toll on the rest of her “once-superior” skill. I do not necessarily buy those critics and do believe Moa deserves better. However, if that were the case, it would also indicate Mao could improve both her GOE and PCS while the other particular skater has almost peaked score wise.
I do admire Mao’s indomitable heart but at the same time I do not think she needs to challenge an extremely difficult jump such as 3A-3. Her steps and spirals are already superior. Moreover, she has an incredible power to synchronize with the audience when she skates clean. She inspires the audience. I think that is where her real strength lies. Whatever power there is behind the scene, they cannot cheat public eyes forever. I hope she will get audience on her side and let them speak for her. Go Mao! Cheering
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PochinkoPotanko
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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:02 pm

hanatsuki wrote:
PochinkoPotanko,
aoi88,
Quote :
The judges may be even harsher on UR's and if Mao get downgrades on one or both of these jumps, she loses any advantage she would get.
You talked for me, aoi88. (and Hi, I am a newbie here)
It is quite up to the technical judges… Frustrated

Mizumizu said something similar to aoi's views also, like the judges would most likely hand out more GOEs to some other skaters if Mao did a 3-3 and 3A in the same program, just to sort of even out the base scores.

If they should do that, it would be totally wrong since they should never give points in comparison, since they score the skaters one at a time, rather than wait for everyone to finish and compare all of them on the same scale first.

Mizumizu once wrote something in her blog that was the most brilliant criticism I've ever read about Yuna's GOEs being unfair. She stated that they're not fair, simply given the fact that they don't give male skaters the same amount of GOEs for their jumps, even if they were as good or even better than Yuna's jumps. I wrote that once in the ISU board, and first some people there opposed saying 'Yuna's scores are given as to how other ladies do, not men' sort of thing. But I replied back about scores given in comparison being logically impossible for the reasons in the paragraph before this one, and also told them that if the judges should be giving her higher GOEs for the same quality jumps as men, just because she's female and it'd be much difficult for her to accomplish that, it would also be wrong given the fact that base values for jumps do not differ amongst ladies or mens...Which obviously means jumps of the same quality shouldn't be rewarded more in ladies, just because it's more difficult for them. And then all the people in ISU board finally stopped pounding on me!

As far as I know, mizumizu is the only one who pointed out the GOE difference between Yuna and men's jumps being illogical, and she really opened my eyes just for that. That woman is simply brilliant, and I'd even think she was a real judge, but probably not, though she definitely should be.

With judging sport like figure skating, everything has to be scored only on an absolute scale, no matter what. Otherwise, there would never be such a thing as a world record score in the first place. If we all think about the system and everything calmly, it all comes down to what's logically possible and what's not.

PS:hanatsuki, you should get yourself an avatar! You can learn how to get one in the Administration : Help&Feedback : 11.04.2009 - a new forum update! thread.

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hanatsuki



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PostSubject: Re: Theoretical layouts for Mao from a CoP expert   Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:52 am

Pochinko Potanko

Absolutely!  Mizumizu-san is quite persuasive Yep! I like the way she argues issues objectively and with logical reasoning.

Tell you what, I was also impressed by a gutsy poster, who fights the good arguments with those hardheaded veteran posters in ISU forum. And you know who she is Boogie Thumbs up!

Thank you!
Thank you, I will try to get my avatar! Um…l, it may take some time as I am very bad at learning technical stuff, though Embarassed
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