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 Serious Boring Question...

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Should the base scores for 3A and quads be higher for ladies compared to men?
yes
51%
 51% [ 22 ]
no
49%
 49% [ 21 ]
Total Votes : 43
 

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PochinkoPotanko
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PostSubject: Serious Boring Question...   Sat May 08, 2010 12:14 pm

There seem to be quite a few number of people in Japan who think women skaters should get more base scores than men when they do a 3A or a quad. It seems they think this way because obviously it's more difficult for a female skater to jump a 3A/quad than men. I agree that it is indeed much harder for ladies to do a 3A/quad than men, but I do not agree on differentiating base scores between ladies and men. Not for the 3A/quad nor any other jump nor any other element to be precise. My reasons are as follows:

1.If you give higher base scores to woman just because they are physically weaker than men, should a physically weaker skater like (or than) an average female skater appear in the mens' group, he should have to be given higher scores just as ladies. If such a thing should be, then we'd have to go through all the skaters' physical abilities and differenciate scores accordingly. It would become endless.

2.If you give higher base scores for 3A/quad in ladies just because it's more harder a jump for them than men, base scores for all the other jumps should be raised as well, for apparently any kind of jump is easier for male skaters than female skaters. So there's not much point in doing so. Plus if you should make such a big change, it will end up confusing alot of viewers on what to make out of the scores. For instance, if we differentiate the base scores between sexes, Mao or Yuna may be able to score higher than Plush or Evan in total, giving the mistaken impression that they are better skaters than top men skaters.

So, I would like to know what you all think concerning this issue. Please try to post explaining the reason for your vote. Esp those who voted 'yes'! I am very curious to hear your opinions! And don't forget that the question is only about the base score for 3A and quads. However, opinions on differentiating mens' and ladies' base scores altogether are welcome, too. Thanks in advance!
Thank you!

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Last edited by PochinkoPotanko on Sat May 08, 2010 10:15 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Serious Boring Question...   Sat May 08, 2010 1:06 pm

PochinkoPotanko wrote:

2.If you give higher base scores for 3A/quad in ladies just because it's more harder a jump for them than men, base scores for all the other jumps should be raised as well, for apparently any kind of jump is easier for male skaters than female skaters.

That! I have nothing more to add. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Serious Boring Question...   Sat May 08, 2010 3:25 pm

I agree with everything you said, Pochi. And it's not only about strength, there's also technique. No matter how strong a skater is, if he/she doesn't have good technique, jumps are gonna be kinda poor.

Plus, we want equal rights!

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PostSubject: Re: Serious Boring Question...   Sat May 08, 2010 3:33 pm

alyssa wrote:
I agree with everything you said, Pochi. And it's not only about strength, there's also technique. No matter how strong a skater is, if he/she doesn't have good technique, jumps are gonna be kinda poor.

Plus, we want equal rights!
ROTFLMAO Love the smily! And I agree with our lovely Potato too! Although I think the base should be equal, I don't like the way it's ratified. Everyone thinks men can do a triple axel, so very under-rotated Evan's axel is always a 3A, and Mao's...you know Frustrated
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PostSubject: Re: Serious Boring Question...   Sat May 08, 2010 10:26 pm



Luv it! So, cute!

Thanks kawaiimao, alyssa, polosatik for voting and stating why!

But I want to know the reasons for the yes votes!
Those in for yes, let your voices be heard!
All opinions are very welcome!

cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Serious Boring Question...   Sat May 08, 2010 10:27 pm

I agree with all the above mentionings Thumbs up!
But...I accidentally marked yes when voting while I shoud have voted for NO. Yikes!!!
So take one vote from YES and add one to NO, pleeeeeease! Faint2
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PostSubject: Re: Serious Boring Question...   Sun May 09, 2010 4:07 am

No, it shouldn't. The scoring system should be the same for everyone!

study

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PostSubject: Re: Serious Boring Question...   Sun May 09, 2010 5:59 am

I chose NO. I want the score of 3A to be higher than now but it should be for men,
too. In Men, 3A is not the easy one as we see too. I can understand that if base score
is higher, Mao will have chance to overcome that Yuna's score. But Daisuke's score,
the highest score in Men, will be beatable too.

I think in Olympic, they want to give reward to all skaters, so Yuna got overscore
with nothing better than what she did before. In Mao's case, I'm not doubted if
someone will say one of all 3A (frankly, I think 3A-2T in FS) is underrotated. If
we compare to some weird UR in World, we will see that it is the same as those in
Olympic. I think judge strict so much for scoring in Grand Prix Final and they
reward better score in World when skaters did the same standard and they bonus
skaters in Olympic. So it is hard for Mao to beat that score in regular season.

I don't mind with score anymore. Yuna is great skater too so it's nice to record
something about her in Hall of Fame and Mao got that Guinness record as reward.
(But I still feel bored with Yuna fan and Korean media, haha.)
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PostSubject: Re: Serious Boring Question...   Sun May 09, 2010 12:45 pm

Thank you! hanatsuki, MikiAndoFan#1, BowbowDaijin, thanks so much for your votes and opinions!

But it seems 6 members voted for yes (uncounting hanatsuki's mistaken vote), but for some reason they aren't bothering to explain why...I wish I can know if they voted yes for purely Mao's sake, or whether they did so cause it would be better for the sport. Should someone vote yes, I really wanted to know if he/she thinks it would be better in some sort of way which I hadn't imagined.

If I don't get much answers here, maybe I'll have to pay a visit to the ISU discussion board and ask people there. And I'd like to avoid that as much as possible, for I have a feeling they're gonna make fun of me asking such a stupid question, or simply ignore me altogether! Yep, Sadly

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PostSubject: Re: Serious Boring Question...   Sun May 09, 2010 4:36 pm

In some cases (like when I think Mao should get more points. hehe), it would be nice, but overall, it definitely shouldn't be changed. If they changed the score for 3As and quads for women, then it wouldn't be fair for them not to go through, and modify the scores accordingly for every jump - and then it furthermore wouldn't be fair if they didn't modify the scores for every other element. Such as spirals counting more for men.
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PostSubject: Re: Serious Boring Question...   Sun May 09, 2010 9:19 pm

Star85 wrote:
In some cases (like when I think Mao should get more points. hehe), it would be nice, but overall, it definitely shouldn't be changed. If they changed the score for 3As and quads for women, then it wouldn't be fair for them not to go through, and modify the scores accordingly for every jump - and then it furthermore wouldn't be fair if they didn't modify the scores for every other element. Such as spirals counting more for men.

ITA. If they give higher scores for women jumping 3As and quads...they'd surely have to give Plush, Denis and some other guys more socres for doing Biellmanns! Which would lead to alot of other guys all performing Biellmanns, which IMO is a bit scary!Hell, no!

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PostSubject: Re: Serious Boring Question...   Mon May 10, 2010 3:39 am

I think I voted No, but I was a little distracted. The base values should be the same. But if they'd like to make it easier on the ladies, they could relax the UR rules to a third instead of a quarter. That would be controversial. But it may encourage more women to try the 3A. I do not think that they want that. I sense that some figure skating "purists" don't want women doing the 3A and men doing the Quad.

PochinkoPotanko wrote:
If I don't get much answers here, maybe I'll have to pay a visit to the ISU discussion board and ask people there. And I'd like to avoid that as much as possible, for I have a feeling they're gonna make fun of me asking such a stupid question, or simply ignore me altogether! Yep, Sadly

I do not know if you are trying to be funny but I cracked-up when I read that part of your post. I haven't been much to the ISU boards. I tried registering but for some reason was unsuccessful.
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PostSubject: Re: Serious Boring Question...   Mon May 10, 2010 4:06 pm

Spacey wrote:
I think I voted No, but I was a little distracted. The base values should be the same. But if they'd like to make it easier on the ladies, they could relax the UR rules to a third instead of a quarter. That would be controversial.
You bring up a very good point though, because it is more or less understood that ladies have a much higher chance of UR'ing a jump than their male counterparts.

As far as base values are concerned though, I have to go with "no" as well. There's simply too many difficulties involved and PochiPota brings up a good point with a possible roller coaster effect taking place which is surely not going to turn out pretty. Who, me?

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PostSubject: Re: Serious Boring Question...   Mon May 10, 2010 4:32 pm

I have voted "no" - My reasoning is because although it is harder for women to do 3A and quads (any jumps for that matter), giving more points for women for doing the same jumps only makes sense if men and women are competing against each other in the same competition. But since they compete in separate competitions, there is no point in differenciating the base values among them IMO. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Serious Boring Question...   Mon May 10, 2010 5:07 pm

It is my belief that the rules should not do so much as even relax for women. It is my belief that if the jumps are rewarded well enough for the men then they should be rewarded the same values for the women. That is in short to say that a jump should have a set value and it should always maintain that value. (whether or not they are given their just values is of course a different story).
The best example i could come up with as a school that isn't co-ed using a curve for the male members based on the premise that women are "smarter" or rather mature fast than men. (lol that analogy was a stretch)
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PostSubject: Re: Serious Boring Question...   Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:54 am

I voted for Yes, because rules for ladies' and men's skaters ARE different. Ladies get high GOE for clean jumps which wouldn't be scored such high if they were men (For example if Mao and Laura Lepisto competed at men's event Mao would never get less points for clean 3A-2T than Laura for 3T-3T ). On the other hand all mistakes are judged very rigorous, so it's completely unviable for them to try difficult jumps. I know men face the same problem, but let's remember 3A is only one of usual jumps for them, most of men can do it clean.

For ladies 3A is a limit of their skills which most of them aren't even able to reach, not to mention exceed it (except Miki Worship her quad was something absolutely extraordinary). For men quad seems to be their limit, and it should be worth much more points either.

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PostSubject: Re: Serious Boring Question...   Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:31 am

I voted no. I feel it would just be making it too easy for the ladies like Spacey said. If you bring up the base scores for the 3A/quad when a lady does it, then (as others have pointed out) you would have to bring the value up for all the other jumps. The ladies just aren't jumping with the level of technique, height, and not to mention, are more likely to UR a jump for the audience just to use the excuse "that these jumps are harder for them" as a way to pressure the judges into rewarding a jump that just isn't at the level of that of a male skater. It would kinda be a slap to the face for the men to see them scoring similarly, and the ladies competition will lose respect due to controversial callings if they are given a sort of a break imo.

There's a reason why the men and ladies compete as different disciplines.
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PostSubject: Re: Serious Boring Question...   Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:02 pm

I voted that YES, I dont have much time to explain but what I can tell is that I would like because its harder for woman to jump, to the date the only women who jumped like men were Tonya Haridng and Midori Ito (IMHO), but for example I remember once on a video of Mao I dont remember who said it but they said how such a tiny and delicate girl like Mao has the strenght to do a triple axel... I at least would like if the jump is fully rotated to the judges to give AT LEAST +1 I find it ridiculous that for ALOT of skaters they put -3 and then a +1 or +2 Idk what those judges are thinking... but oh well... right now I do like the base points for 3A alot more than when its was in the 7's range
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PostSubject: Re: Serious Boring Question...   Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:32 am

she derserves victory Laughing Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Serious Boring Question...   Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:25 pm

I voted no. Smile

First of all, as others have pointed out, men and women are not competing against each other, so what is the point?

I agree with Pochi's two initial points.

ALL jumps (not just 3A and quad) tend to be more difficult for the women than they are for the men, so it would only be fair if they changed the values of all the jumps, not just those two. But in my opinion, changing the rules in this way would open a huge can of worms. For instance, not all women are equally talented jumpers, and some of those differences are for physical reasons. It is easier for younger girls with narrow hips to rotate triples—all else being equal, should their jumps be given fewer points because of that? And some women are built more powerfully than others, and are able to jump more like the men. If we start grading the difficulty of jumps based on body type, we would see no end of controversy, and after all, a more exaggerated difference in body type is what we are talking about with regards to men vs. women.

So no, there should be no distinction made between men and women with regard to the base values of any jumps, let alone just the 3A and quad.
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