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PochinkoPotanko
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PostSubject: A question!   Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:43 am

I have a question, and I don't know if this is the correct corner in which to post it, but can somebody please explain? It's a very amateur question btw... Embarassed

In PCS, there's a part in which they give scores to 'choreography/composition'...what exactly do they score here? The program? Like how good or difficult the program itself is? Question

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PostSubject: Re: A question!   Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:49 am


Patrick Ibens, one of the judges at the Olympics, highlighted the components of the PCS in his famous interview with Tony Wheeler.
http://www.flutzingaround.com/2010/03/i-would-say-10-of-judges-are-completely.html

I believe the CoP manual has more specific guidelines for each section, but this seems to be what the judges are looking for when they judge. With that said, they are still guidelines and it is clear that these things don't all apply when it comes to certain skaters at certain events. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: A question!   Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:12 pm

aoi88 wrote:
I believe the CoP manual has more specific guidelines for each section, but this seems to be what the judges are looking for when they judge. With that said, they are still guidelines and it is clear that these things don't all apply when it comes to certain skaters at certain events. Wink
THIS. Rolling Eyes

Here is USFS's summary of CoP and the guidelines for PCS, which is much less cluttered and easier to find compared to the one ISU published:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/New_Judging.asp?id=289

I brought up the same argument over at JapanFS, but choreography is really the least necessary of the 5 PCS categories - practically all of the bullets for marking it can already be found at SS, TR, PE, or IN. They're just worded differently. I also find it ridiculous that performance and execution aren't separated but lumped up, especially if you read that:
Quote :
Definition: Performance is the involvement of the skater/couple/teams physically, emotionally and intellectually as they translate the intent of the music and choreography. Execution is the quality of movement and precision in delivery. This includes harmony of movement in pairs, ice dancing and synchronized skating.
They really should be separated IMO. Cleanly executing a program does not always equal a well-performed skate (and vice-versa). Why the ISU felt the need to classify these two together is simply beyond me. Faint2

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PostSubject: Re: A question!   Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:34 am

aoi88 wrote:

Patrick Ibens, one of the judges at the Olympics, highlighted the components of the PCS in his famous interview with Tony Wheeler.
http://www.flutzingaround.com/2010/03/i-would-say-10-of-judges-are-completely.html

I believe the CoP manual has more specific guidelines for each section, but this seems to be what the judges are looking for when they judge. With that said, they are still guidelines and it is clear that these things don't all apply when it comes to certain skaters at certain events. Wink

Thanks aoi!
So...if we take Ibens' words literally:

Quote :
Choreography:
1. Nice programs with beautiful choreography and good lay-out of the entire program.
2. Good use of the music.

...the scores for choreo is something which awards more the choreographer's work, rather than the skaters'? Plus, whowever well or poorly the program was executed, the evalutation of choreo scores would not be influenced???

clovera brought up some interesting points about this in the Japanese forum (which she mentioned in her post), and it took my mind back to an issue I thought about long ago once...should there be points for choreo (not for how it was performed but the choreo itself), when, I guess it's safe to say, that none of the skaters are doing their choreo themselves anymore? I couldn't understand the scores for choreo being there from the start, and I asked people about it in some FS forums long ago, but didn't get any responses, so I thought I was misunderstanding the scores for choreo someway, and nobody has a problem with it.

But reading clovera's opinions, made me question this matter again...why are there scores being given for 'nice programs with beautiful choreography', when that part is done by the choreographers. Moreover, if this indeed means the judges are judging the program (and not the skater or how the skater executed it), it becomes like an evalutation towards the choreographers. Good evaluations in choreo scores will mean the choreographers who made the pro would most likely be getting more jobs in the future. But we seem to have judges and choreographers being friends and keeping in touch...is there no problem in that? Question

What do you all think?

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PostSubject: Re: A question!   Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:08 am

PochinkoPotanko wrote:

But reading clovera's opinions, made me question this matter again...why are there scores being given for 'nice programs with beautiful choreography', when that part is done by the choreographers. Moreover, if this indeed means the judges are judging the program (and not the skater or how the skater executed it), it becomes like an evalutation towards the choreographers. Good evaluations in choreo scores will mean the choreographers who made the pro would most likely be getting more jobs in the future. But we seem to have judges and choreographers being friends and keeping in touch...is there no problem in that? Question

Yea, that's basically the idea. A big part of being a successful figure skater depends on packaging. In the judges' mind, a skater is expected to have good presentation that suits their tastes. This usually means that the skater needs to go to one of the world class choreographers, whose works have proven to work with the judges. So in essence, they are judging the choreographers rather than the skaters. This bias is not entirely unfounded though since the top choreographers' works usually stand apart from the lesser known names. For example, a Lori Nichol program is usually more polished than something done by let's say Karen Kwan. However, this is not always the case and more importantly, not all skaters can afford to hire these choreographers. I've read in other forums that Nichol typically charges $10,000 per program. This is where reputation comes in because many young skaters cannot afford to hire top choreographers, so despite having exceptional presentation skills, they will still get lower PCS marks than expected. In some ways, the skating world resembles the real world. Even though you may have talent, you still have to work your way up to get recognized and even then you still might not get your just rewards.
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PostSubject: Re: A question!   Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:20 am

aoi88 wrote:
PochinkoPotanko wrote:

But reading clovera's opinions, made me question this matter again...why are there scores being given for 'nice programs with beautiful choreography', when that part is done by the choreographers. Moreover, if this indeed means the judges are judging the program (and not the skater or how the skater executed it), it becomes like an evalutation towards the choreographers. Good evaluations in choreo scores will mean the choreographers who made the pro would most likely be getting more jobs in the future. But we seem to have judges and choreographers being friends and keeping in touch...is there no problem in that? Question

Yea, that's basically the idea. A big part of being a successful figure skater depends on packaging. In the judges' mind, a skater is expected to have good presentation that suits their tastes. This usually means that the skater needs to go to one of the world class choreographers, whose works have proven to work with the judges. So in essence, they are judging the choreographers rather than the skaters. This bias is not entirely unfounded though since the top choreographers' works usually stand apart from the lesser known names. For example, a Lori Nichol program is usually more polished than something done by let's say Karen Kwan. However, this is not always the case and more importantly, not all skaters can afford to hire these choreographers. I've read in other forums that Nichol typically charges $10,000 per program. This is where reputation comes in because many young skaters cannot afford to hire top choreographers, so despite having exceptional presentation skills, they will still get lower PCS marks than expected. In some ways, the skating world resembles the real world. Even though you may have talent, you still have to work your way up to get recognized and even then you still might not get your just rewards.

Of course the money issue concerning choreo had been bothering me eversince skaters started hiring choreographers...what if there's a great skater who's at a certain level, but unfortunately he or she is in a country with no rich skating fed and stuff, so cannot hire a high priced choreographer, so as a result cannot achieve good scores for choreo? I know this is highly unlikely to happen, and if you start asking 'what if', there'll be no end to any issue. But I think rules have to be created upon various possibilities... Yep, Sadly

And in anycase, I do think they should have some sort of restriction for judges and choreographers, not to mention coaches getting acquainted. I mean, it doesn't make sense. They don't allow people in the jury to get acquainted with proscecuters or lawyers involved in a trial do they? I know my saying all this here means nothing, but I still think that's the way it should be with judges in FS, too.

I guess with FS, you have a certain number of people, the same certain people doing the skating, coaching, choreographying, and judging in their little world together over and over...everybody knows almost everybody by now, that it's impossible to isolate only the judges. But unless they do everything possible to avoid possibilities of relationships interfering with the judging, I don't think we can ever be certain if the judges are ever fair... Disappointed

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