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 Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?

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klarification
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PostSubject: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:02 pm

I am quite sure someone saw this video already:
Quote :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4QvfUtD-cE

It is a side-by-side comparison of Mao's Lieberstraume programs- first the one she performed on 4CC and the second one at the bottom on Japanese Nationals.

In these troubled times, Mao brings us this work of art. Both are wonderfully gorgeous and I can imagine it as Mao's Lyra Angelica. However, I think that there are some things about the old version that was better executed and vice versa. So what are your thoughts in this?

Here's mine:

1. The new version is a little more flexible, with slightly less transitions, giving Mao time to do her elements while still matching with the mood and nuances of the music.
2. The spread eagle of the old version should be included in the new version!
3. The running movements in the old version gave the piece more emotion- it was as if Mao was running to a man's embrace.
4. And finally, the ending pose where Mao closes her eyes as if still dreaming about love, I think that was lovely and somehow iconic. The new ending pose seemed typical.

Discuss away!
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PostSubject: Re: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:29 pm

I had seen this montage. Great job.

I like a little of each version. But overall, I prefer the second.

They could add a longer spread eagle before the 3S.
The spiral was a little slow too.

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Last edited by alyssa on Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:41 pm

Like alyssa mentioned, the new version does actually have a SE before the 3S. Extending it might not hurt, of course. Razz

All in all I'm partial to the new choreography due to the overall flow of the program. The lutz is a prime example of this - the entrance isn't as stretched, there are connecting steps before the takeoff, and the landing is followed by a nice ina bauer. I do like the running movement in the old SLSS, and I always enjoy seeing butterflies going into a spin but both contributed to the timing difficulties Mao had near the end so I'm not too sad to see them go.

One of Mao's distinguishing qualities is that she doesn't stroke a whole lot (which IMO deserves more recognition and is interestingly enough a judging criterion for transitions) in addition to her relative inclusion of forward crossovers when directly compared to the other ladies. She really has zero movement to rely on for the spirals near the end as it's right after the combination spin too, and...well, at least on paper the CoP likes to see a mastery of "various speeds," so this might not be a bad thing. Laugh Joking aside, Mao *can* simply add one more crossover before the spiral to give it an extra push. Yep!

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PostSubject: Re: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:05 am

The new one all the way!
The old version felt somewhat empty to me and I actually wasn't that crazy about it as an LP as I had expected to be.
Only when I watched the 4CC version I thought "finally" that's more like it! Thumbs up!
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PostSubject: Re: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:07 am

I think her old Liebestraum had choreography that was better timed with the music, but I like the new program better overall.

I like that she added steps before her lutz and I LOVE the exit out of the jump. I also really like that she does a spiral at the very end of the program. It's a nice surprise. flower

I have a feeling she will tweak the program more as she prepares for Worlds. Hopefully she'll add that spread eagle back in! cat
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PostSubject: Re: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:35 am

I adore this pro of Mao!
For the last 2 years - she had a series of FP where it felt she was down or overwhelmed.... Snow

The joy of skating leaps out of her face during the FP (be in in Japan or 4CC!)
I loved the old one -
But it felt a bit loose - somewhat lacking a whole overall backbone - it felt extremely beautiful some places and quite dry at some other spots!
Now it feels more complete -
and I am sure Mao will tweak the final outcome for worlds -

She re-arranged the choreography in such a short time! Neutral
That itself was a feat!
Now that she has more time - well her FP will do wonders! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:21 am

I really like both version but I have to agree with maochan756 the new version seems overall more complete and mao shows more emotion in between the elements, and the changes i really love is how the program starts as well as end with the spirals. and the steps also seem more like mao.
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PostSubject: Re: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:26 am

I love them both, but the new one is better overall for the CoP, at least. Adding the footwork before the lutz not only goes with the music and boots her transition scores, but also counts as a difficult entry that offsets some of the negative GOE Mao receives due to the edge call. At 4CC she only lost 0.50 - much less than she would lose when doing the lutz in the 07-08 season. Also, the transitions into the combo spin go with the music better and allow the spin to be on the correct phrasing of the music. The part after the combo spin looked like Mao was a little behind the music, but when she does it on the music it will have a greater effect. I have a solution for the spread eagle problem, but I don't know if Mao would be ready for it due to her salchow issues:
1.) Do the long spread eagle on the outside edge.
2.) Switch to the inside spread eagle.
3.) Lift up back foot (right foot) and go directly into the triple salchow.
This is VERY difficult, but I think she could do it next season. She would need a lot of speed going into the spread eagle so it could last until she jumped, but if anyone could do it, it's Mao.

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PostSubject: Re: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:55 pm

maofan93 wrote:
I love them both, but the new one is better overall for the CoP, at least. Adding the footwork before the lutz not only goes with the music and boots her transition scores, but also counts as a difficult entry that offsets some of the negative GOE Mao receives due to the edge call. At 4CC she only lost 0.50 - much less than she would lose when doing the lutz in the 07-08 season. Also, the transitions into the combo spin go with the music better and allow the spin to be on the correct phrasing of the music. The part after the combo spin looked like Mao was a little behind the music, but when she does it on the music it will have a greater effect. I have a solution for the spread eagle problem, but I don't know if Mao would be ready for it due to her salchow issues:
1.) Do the long spread eagle on the outside edge.
2.) Switch to the inside spread eagle.
3.) Lift up back foot (right foot) and go directly into the triple salchow.
This is VERY difficult, but I think she could do it next season. She would need a lot of speed going into the spread eagle so it could last until she jumped, but if anyone could do it, it's Mao.

Taka-chan did that the last two seasons (not sure about this season, I would have to go check). Actually, his FS last year had outside spreadeagle, inside spreadeagle, 3S-2T-2L.... affraid

Considering Taka-chan always has plenty of transitions (Yukari also did gorgeous spreadeagles into 2A), I'm assuming Sato-sensei is only waiting for each jump to get stabilized before adding more difficult entries and exits (eg. the lutz at 4CC). I wouldn't be surprised if Mao adds a spreadeagle into 3S, but I'm sure she's got enough on her plate this season. As you say though, next season, she might be ready to try something like this.

Back to the topic of this thread, I much prefer the new version. It flows a lot better and Mao seems less rushed, especially starting at the 3S. And I prefer the new ending with the spiral too. The closed eyes and leaning sideways was very pretty and dreamy, but she always kinda snapped into position because the music was ending and she was a little behind so the effect was a bit loss. Now, with the held out arabesque and loop she does, it just kinda flows. And of course, the steps into 3Lz, the ina bauer out of it and the 3-turns she does going into the 1st combo spin. I always felt that part was rather empty "stroke-stroke-jump-stroke-stroke-spin", but I guess that adding the lutz after all this time... well it was necessary.

Also, I'm very surprised to read here and on other forums that people miss the running steps in the footwork. I actually thought it looked awfully corny and predictable, plus Mao looked a bit awkward doing it. I might be the only one, but I'm happy to see it gone. cat
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PostSubject: Re: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:57 pm

chiyori wrote:
maofan93 wrote:
I love them both, but the new one is better overall for the CoP, at least. Adding the footwork before the lutz not only goes with the music and boots her transition scores, but also counts as a difficult entry that offsets some of the negative GOE Mao receives due to the edge call. At 4CC she only lost 0.50 - much less than she would lose when doing the lutz in the 07-08 season. Also, the transitions into the combo spin go with the music better and allow the spin to be on the correct phrasing of the music. The part after the combo spin looked like Mao was a little behind the music, but when she does it on the music it will have a greater effect. I have a solution for the spread eagle problem, but I don't know if Mao would be ready for it due to her salchow issues:
1.) Do the long spread eagle on the outside edge.
2.) Switch to the inside spread eagle.
3.) Lift up back foot (right foot) and go directly into the triple salchow.
This is VERY difficult, but I think she could do it next season. She would need a lot of speed going into the spread eagle so it could last until she jumped, but if anyone could do it, it's Mao.

Taka-chan did that the last two seasons (not sure about this season, I would have to go check). Actually, his FS last year had outside spreadeagle, inside spreadeagle, 3S-2T-2L.... affraid

Considering Taka-chan always has plenty of transitions (Yukari also did gorgeous spreadeagles into 2A), I'm assuming Sato-sensei is only waiting for each jump to get stabilized before adding more difficult entries and exits (eg. the lutz at 4CC). I wouldn't be surprised if Mao adds a spreadeagle into 3S, but I'm sure she's got enough on her plate this season. As you say though, next season, she might be ready to try something like this.

Back to the topic of this thread, I much prefer the new version. It flows a lot better and Mao seems less rushed, especially starting at the 3S. And I prefer the new ending with the spiral too. The closed eyes and leaning sideways was very pretty and dreamy, but she always kinda snapped into position because the music was ending and she was a little behind so the effect was a bit loss. Now, with the held out arabesque and loop she does, it just kinda flows. And of course, the steps into 3Lz, the ina bauer out of it and the 3-turns she does going into the 1st combo spin. I always felt that part was rather empty "stroke-stroke-jump-stroke-stroke-spin", but I guess that adding the lutz after all this time... well it was necessary.

Also, I'm very surprised to read here and on other forums that people miss the running steps in the footwork. I actually thought it looked awfully corny and predictable, plus Mao looked a bit awkward doing it. I might be the only one, but I'm happy to see it gone. cat

I agree with you Chiyori. It is exciting to imagine how much different and improved Mao would be by the time of next Olympics. Sato-sensei seems to be a person who pursue slow but steady improvement rather than rapid and drastic changes. I believe Mao has already hit the bottom in terms of correcting jump techniques and now on a rising curve. She's endured very difficult but inevitable time. It is assuring that Sato-sensei has been and will be there for her. Also Mao has Kumiko-sensei and Reiko-sensei, and Kozu too. Too sweet! Go Team Sato! Cheering

I didn't like the running steps in the previous choreography very much either. It didn't look the way how Mao would expresses her love to someone. It looked superficial.

Having watched the new choreo version so many times, I now like the new one. Same as some of you, I miss the spread eagle though.

Anyway, this program is a masterpiece. It maximizes Mao's genuine and pure characters and gentleness. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:54 pm

Well, I definitely prefer the new version. Yep! There are some things I miss from the old one (like the spread eagle), but there are many small things I prefer in the new one, like the choreography before and (especially) after the lutz, or how the biellmann fits the music so beautifully. I liked the old version of the step sequence, but I feel like the new version sings more, somehow. It flows so beautifully, where as the old one seemed a little more labored in places. But part of it may have to do with its slightly earlier placement in the program as well. I simply adore the new arrangement of the last few elements—I feel that they work beautifully with the music.

Overall, I feel like the new version of the program looks more effortless, and fits the music just a little better. I remember Peggy Flemming's comment that Mao 'lives and breathes this music' (was that 08 Worlds SP?), and I feel that way watching the new version of Liebestraum. Many Hearts
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PostSubject: Re: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:33 am

chiyori wrote:

Also, I'm very surprised to read here and on other forums that people miss the running steps in the footwork. I actually thought it looked awfully corny and predictable, plus Mao looked a bit awkward doing it. I might be the only one, but I'm happy to see it gone. cat

Ooh, I guess it's a matter of preference then! Those running movements looked corny to you but to me they kinda stuck out in a good way I guess, since she pauses for a while and tries to "act" as if there really was a man she wanted to embrace.

Anyway, it's nice hearing the members' comments. All in all, everyone seems to be in agreement that the new one is better. Unless someone comes in and proves otherwise? Too sweet!
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PostSubject: Re: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:26 am

chiyori wrote:

Also, I'm very surprised to read here and on other forums that people miss the running steps in the footwork. I actually thought it looked awfully corny and predictable, plus Mao looked a bit awkward doing it. I might be the only one, but I'm happy to see it gone. cat
I also don't miss those steps. May be it could make an effort if it would be choreographed in more dynamic way. Now, I really love the step sequence! And spiral in the end is gorgeous! I'm all for the new version! Yep!
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PostSubject: Re: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:37 am

I also don't like those running steps in the old choreo. I'm all for the new one although like most (if not all) of you I'd have preferred a longer spread eagle. But then, Mao only started practicing the new choreography last month. We can still expect more. After all, mao did say she had to take out some of it to catch up during 4CC.

Btw, polosatik, I'll say it again. I Love Hearts your siggie esp in slow mo. Hell, no! It just animated in slow mo now during first load as my internet is quite slow tonight.
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PostSubject: Re: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:56 am

roma wrote:


Btw, polosatik, I'll say it again. I Love Hearts your siggie esp in slow mo. Hell, no! It just animated in slow mo now during first load as my internet is quite slow tonight.
Haha, even we have quite a few MaoSuke shippers,we still have hope! Razz I can't wait to see their new moments at 2011 WC!
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PostSubject: Re: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:45 pm

Wonder what Armin thinks... Smile

He just uploaded his Lieberstraum on the piano to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhPyToayMiM

Don't know where he finds time to juggle among skating, practicing piano, traveling and studying. It is a pretty difficult piece to play.
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PostSubject: Re: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:54 pm

cherriee wrote:
Wonder what Armin thinks... Smile

He just uploaded his Lieberstraum on the piano to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhPyToayMiM

Don't know where he finds time to juggle among skating, practicing piano, traveling and studying. It is a pretty difficult piece to play.


Oh my! Armin what a sweetheart! So much talent and love for Mao~!
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PostSubject: Re: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:24 pm

Hmm..I'm actually not sure which one I prefer. I like some things about both versions. I think that overall, the new version fits key points of the music better, although there are some details of the music that the old version hit that the new one doesn't. In terms of the running steps, I really like the idea; I just think they'd be more effective when placed right during the descending scale of the music. Mao tended to get a bit off the timing, which made the running steps probably seem out of place or jarring. In the right context, I think the effect would be amazing. I really love the spiral at the end of the new version..it's a greater and more unusual ending. So I guess I'd put myself in the middle, wanting to combine aspects of both versions.

And aww, Armin! Did you see that in the description for the video, he put the link to his picture with Mao (from the 4CC banquet) and then wrote, "Good luck at worlds!" Wub He is such an amazing fanboy! Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:53 pm

Oh, so lovely. Many Hearts
I wanted to make a video to Mao skating to it, but his version is a bit too fast. Maybe later.

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PostSubject: Re: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:46 pm

cherriee wrote:
Wonder what Armin thinks... Smile

He just uploaded his Lieberstraum on the piano to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhPyToayMiM

Don't know where he finds time to juggle among skating, practicing piano, traveling and studying. It is a pretty difficult piece to play.

Aaww! In the video description, he put up a link to his photo with Mao and wished her good luck for Worlds. What a sweetheart! Many Hearts
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PostSubject: Re: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:11 am

mao is so lucky to have a fan like armin (do you think he reads us?)!
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PostSubject: Re: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:05 am

swan wrote:
mao is so lucky to have a fan like armin (do you think he reads us?)!
He's such a nice fan Smile and very good playing the piano! I also wonder if he reads us.
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PostSubject: Re: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:59 pm

I like the new program better.
Better transition and i really like how she finishes the program with a spiral.
The only thing that i don't like so much is her position on the (last) back sit spin. But i guess she cant go lower because of the donut spin afterwards.

I think she can build up more speed into her jumps next season when all her jumps are stabilized and hopefully she will fix her lutz before worlds.
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PostSubject: Re: Old and New Lieberstraum- Which one do you like better?    Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:57 pm

Armin, come out! I know you're lurking! Wink j/k I don't know if he's lurking, but I wouldn't be surprised. ROTFLMAO

(I like the TakaMao ship, but I have to give credit to Armin for his excellent piano playing.)
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